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frankly, back to reality, as a buyer, i have never got chance to meet any 2nd hand stranger seller who agreed to let me try out something with money return assurance especially for the reason like "not satisfied". no offense but as a buyer like me, it's even stupid to ask for it.
as a seller, i have never got chance to meet a stranger buyer who asked for such kinda "not satisfied then return assurance". i can not imagine how i will response to such request. maybe i will agree with it or maybe not. i dun know bcos i have never have such request yet and i dun expect it.
what i mean is, based on the common understanding, there is NO such kinda of assurance and bcos of this, the "not satisfied assurance", just in case if there is any, can ONLY mean defect i am afraid. it's ridiculous that "not satisfied" can mean "not sharp enough" in 2nd hand market that between strangers and strangers. it will be a joke for the people with good communication skills in english. and for the people without, it will cause misunderstanding.
Bullshit. Pardon the strong language but really, what you're saying befits that.
Have you ever queued at the returns section at Macy's? I have.
You'd see whites, AfAs, hispanics, Asians, and all colours under the Sun.
What the US have is a strong consumer rights act, thanks to Ralph Nader. The returns policy is excellent but is all the time abused by the desperate or the unscrupulous, as much as it also protects the honest consumer.
P
psyche
Guest
Wise to check carefully before handing the money...
QUOTE]Originally posted by kahheng
Bullshit. Pardon the strong language but really, what you're saying befits that.
Have you ever queued at the returns section at Macy's? I have.
You'd see whites, AfAs, hispanics, Asians, and all colours under the Sun.
What the US have is a strong consumer rights act, thanks to Ralph Nader. The returns policy is excellent but is all the time abused by the desperate or the unscrupulous, as much as it also protects the honest consumer. [/QUOTE]
I'v passed by Macy's though I haven't been to the Returns section.
I'm commenting based on the experience as a uni grad from America. That's the impression I get about students from China. And I still see the "weird" behaviors of such students in NUS. You somehow get that feeling when u associate with them after some time. Ask Science and engineering students and u can dig out the facts. But like I said not all are like that. But generally, that's my impresison. sorry, I know this is stereotyping and I admit it. I'm not being a racist, but i'm stereotyping their behaviors. You can have your own opinion, but that's mine.
I'm not saying you can't go for an exchange of products. I have myself when I was in the US and I so much appreciate their system. But with what kinds of reasons? Sure, white students for eg do that sometimes, especially whne they are financially dependent and need to desperately get something they want for an event. But I'm referring in a sample of adults, in my experience, they were frequently those from China. Sorry again, it's biased but that's my opinion. I respect yours too. Ok.. off topic somewhat...
Bullshit. Pardon the strong language but really, what you're saying befits that.
Have you ever queued at the returns section at Macy's? I have.
You'd see whites, AfAs, hispanics, Asians, and all colours under the Sun.
What the US have is a strong consumer rights act, thanks to Ralph Nader. The returns policy is excellent but is all the time abused by the desperate or the unscrupulous, as much as it also protects the honest consumer. [/QUOTE]
I'v passed by Macy's though I haven't been to the Returns section.
I'm commenting based on the experience as a uni grad from America. That's the impression I get about students from China. And I still see the "weird" behaviors of such students in NUS. You somehow get that feeling when u associate with them after some time. Ask Science and engineering students and u can dig out the facts. But like I said not all are like that. But generally, that's my impresison. sorry, I know this is stereotyping and I admit it. I'm not being a racist, but i'm stereotyping their behaviors. You can have your own opinion, but that's mine.
I'm not saying you can't go for an exchange of products. I have myself when I was in the US and I so much appreciate their system. But with what kinds of reasons? Sure, white students for eg do that sometimes, especially whne they are financially dependent and need to desperately get something they want for an event. But I'm referring in a sample of adults, in my experience, they were frequently those from China. Sorry again, it's biased but that's my opinion. I respect yours too. Ok.. off topic somewhat...
StreetShooter
Senior Member
Please, no more slurs on nationality or race. I will delete all such future postings with extreme prejudice.
Well, well, my 2 cents is at the point of verbal agreement, it all depends on what kind of wordings the buyer and seller agreed on.
But, if u never mention that "lens is not sharp" and include it in the verbal clause, this shall not be counted in.
And i am very very interested to know, "lens not sharp", is it due to mechanical error/lens error, or is it based on ur personal perception? I can anyhow buy a Canon L lens, and say "Heh! Not sharp ler.." whilst everyone else scrub their heads wondering why, and u still say "eh! not sharp ler.. i tested XXmm, XXmm,etc and i conclude not sharp"
The logical way is, maybe to get another lens of the same kind, and test it out with the lens u have now, side by side.
All using same settings.
Then if the sharpness is different, u can tell the seller outright,"see, after comparison, there is something wrong, lens not as sharp as the same model"
Just my 2 cents.
But, if u never mention that "lens is not sharp" and include it in the verbal clause, this shall not be counted in.
And i am very very interested to know, "lens not sharp", is it due to mechanical error/lens error, or is it based on ur personal perception? I can anyhow buy a Canon L lens, and say "Heh! Not sharp ler.." whilst everyone else scrub their heads wondering why, and u still say "eh! not sharp ler.. i tested XXmm, XXmm,etc and i conclude not sharp"
The logical way is, maybe to get another lens of the same kind, and test it out with the lens u have now, side by side.
All using same settings.
Then if the sharpness is different, u can tell the seller outright,"see, after comparison, there is something wrong, lens not as sharp as the same model"
Just my 2 cents.
Sandman:
What do you mean with not satisfied with test photo's? If they were not due to some mechanical or optical problems (problems related to the lens), I don't think you have any right for a refund. Some lenses are just not as sharp as others (especially looked through a loupe which you and your friends have done probably), secondly: were you looking at slides or prints? These can have given you the impression of not sharp photo as as well. Please show us the pics taken with the lens before blaming it on someone else, it really shows the person you are by posting bad remarks onto someone who even could take it professionally in one of the threads you were warning others. Unless the 'unsharpness' were due to this particular lens fault and not due to to the inherent quality of this lens design, you really have no grounds to stand on, and not only that, you have the moral duty to apologize to him (on the threads)! So, are you going to post the pics??? Also, if you can show that another but SAME lens is sharper then you have some grounds to stand on.....
Another point I would like to make is: the unwritten rule used by most people is that a refund is only possible when the item is not as described (faulty). To expect a refund for a lens not being sharp, which is very subjective, without claiming that it is due to a problem with the lens is too far fetched, unless it is your friend or so.
Hi David, there are bad eggs everywhere, we are all human. No use to generalise, just look at people as individuals. I have dealt with US sellers for many years on ebay, most were good, some were real scammers and sold me rubbish......this doesn't make me even think americans are bad......I just take it as a bad experience and realise that some americans are just a pain in the you know where.........I just experience a bad one with a german seller (out of 4 buys from there)......so (25% of) germans are bad isn't it? See, how silly it sounds?
Hong Sien
What do you mean with not satisfied with test photo's? If they were not due to some mechanical or optical problems (problems related to the lens), I don't think you have any right for a refund. Some lenses are just not as sharp as others (especially looked through a loupe which you and your friends have done probably), secondly: were you looking at slides or prints? These can have given you the impression of not sharp photo as as well. Please show us the pics taken with the lens before blaming it on someone else, it really shows the person you are by posting bad remarks onto someone who even could take it professionally in one of the threads you were warning others. Unless the 'unsharpness' were due to this particular lens fault and not due to to the inherent quality of this lens design, you really have no grounds to stand on, and not only that, you have the moral duty to apologize to him (on the threads)! So, are you going to post the pics??? Also, if you can show that another but SAME lens is sharper then you have some grounds to stand on.....
Another point I would like to make is: the unwritten rule used by most people is that a refund is only possible when the item is not as described (faulty). To expect a refund for a lens not being sharp, which is very subjective, without claiming that it is due to a problem with the lens is too far fetched, unless it is your friend or so.
Hi David, there are bad eggs everywhere, we are all human. No use to generalise, just look at people as individuals. I have dealt with US sellers for many years on ebay, most were good, some were real scammers and sold me rubbish......this doesn't make me even think americans are bad......I just take it as a bad experience and realise that some americans are just a pain in the you know where.........I just experience a bad one with a german seller (out of 4 buys from there)......so (25% of) germans are bad isn't it? See, how silly it sounds?
Hong Sien
S
sandman
Guest
Cyril's post:
"So then, maybe you could have taken some test shots with a DSLR or film SLR, tell the seller you'll analyze the results FIRST to see if they are up to your expectations, THEN get back to him to close the deal. Shouldn't take more than a day but if buyer & seller are keen, I'm sure both can wait."
That's exactly what I told him and even paid him the full amount on the spot.
Zerstorer's post:
"I think the crux of the issue lies with whether PowerXu actually did agree to the terms stated by Sandman or not. If he did, then he is obliged to live by the agreement, regardless of how presumptuous it may sound, as the deal hinged on that agreement.
However, we will never know if its a case of miscommunication or PowerXu reneging on the agreement.
Sandman: Since there is no way to prove either case, you might as well give it a rest. You have already given other prospective buyers ample warning and nothing can be gained by pushing on as there is no way us bystanders can ascertain who is right."
At last, somebody who realises what the whole point of discussion is about.
Why did the whole argument become so technical? The problem lies with a broken agreement between 2 individuals to trade. Irregardless of what conditions were set or how DUMB a person is, as long as there is mutual agreement during the point of trade, both sides must abide by it. It does not hinge on what the industry or normal trading standards.
As for those who claim that my argument is unsubstantiated, why dont you go and answer my final question?
"So then, maybe you could have taken some test shots with a DSLR or film SLR, tell the seller you'll analyze the results FIRST to see if they are up to your expectations, THEN get back to him to close the deal. Shouldn't take more than a day but if buyer & seller are keen, I'm sure both can wait."
That's exactly what I told him and even paid him the full amount on the spot.
Zerstorer's post:
"I think the crux of the issue lies with whether PowerXu actually did agree to the terms stated by Sandman or not. If he did, then he is obliged to live by the agreement, regardless of how presumptuous it may sound, as the deal hinged on that agreement.
However, we will never know if its a case of miscommunication or PowerXu reneging on the agreement.
Sandman: Since there is no way to prove either case, you might as well give it a rest. You have already given other prospective buyers ample warning and nothing can be gained by pushing on as there is no way us bystanders can ascertain who is right."
At last, somebody who realises what the whole point of discussion is about.
Why did the whole argument become so technical? The problem lies with a broken agreement between 2 individuals to trade. Irregardless of what conditions were set or how DUMB a person is, as long as there is mutual agreement during the point of trade, both sides must abide by it. It does not hinge on what the industry or normal trading standards.
As for those who claim that my argument is unsubstantiated, why dont you go and answer my final question?
Sandman used negetive to test the lens and developed into 3" photoes just in the shop on the street.
I told him in the phone to try SLIDE or develope again @ FUJI lab( for neg, I only trust FUJI lab), maybe there is problem of the develop shop. But he didn't follow my suggestion, just always saying "Not sharp, not sharp", even did not let me say any word.
Before buying the lense, you should know the quality and character of the lens. I can't guarantee you the result, because I am only a user, not producer! not retailer!. I only can guarantee that the lens works well, such as aperture/focusing.
I use this lens to take some slide(apperture arround 8) and can't tell the difference with Nikkor AFD24 with 4xLoup.
I am so glad to see so many people here talking about my transaction with understanding. Thanks very much.
StreetShooter
I am not the guy you met. I am Nikonian not Canonian. And never use/sell Canon lens.
I told him in the phone to try SLIDE or develope again @ FUJI lab( for neg, I only trust FUJI lab), maybe there is problem of the develop shop. But he didn't follow my suggestion, just always saying "Not sharp, not sharp", even did not let me say any word.
Before buying the lense, you should know the quality and character of the lens. I can't guarantee you the result, because I am only a user, not producer! not retailer!. I only can guarantee that the lens works well, such as aperture/focusing.
I use this lens to take some slide(apperture arround 8) and can't tell the difference with Nikkor AFD24 with 4xLoup.
I am so glad to see so many people here talking about my transaction with understanding. Thanks very much.
StreetShooter
I am not the guy you met. I am Nikonian not Canonian. And never use/sell Canon lens.
so what's the mutual agreement between you two?
did you agree that if sandman is not satisfied with the result, even it's not due to any fault/defect of the len, you will refund him? this is the most important because sandman said if he is not satisfied with len by any reason, you will refund. that's part of the agreement. if you agreed with that, then it's your fault because you broke the agreement.
did you agree that if sandman is not satisfied with the result, even it's not due to any fault/defect of the len, you will refund him? this is the most important because sandman said if he is not satisfied with len by any reason, you will refund. that's part of the agreement. if you agreed with that, then it's your fault because you broke the agreement.
Originally posted by powerxu
Sandman used negetive to test the lens and developed into 3" photoes just in the shop on the street.
I told him in the phone to try SLIDE or develope again @ FUJI lab( for neg, I only trust FUJI lab), maybe there is problem of the develop shop. But he didn't follow my suggestion, just always saying "Not sharp, not sharp", even did not let me say any word.
Before buying the lense, you should know the quality and character of the lens. I can't guarantee you the result, because I am only a user, not producer! not retailer!. I only can guarantee that the lens works well, such as aperture/focusing.
I use this lens to take some slide(apperture arround 8) and can't tell the difference with Nikkor AFD24 with 4xLoup.
I am so glad to see so many people here talking about my transaction with understanding. Thanks very much.
StreetShooter
I am not the guy you met. I am Nikonian not Canonian. And never use/sell Canon lens.
There was no indication that the refund would be given when buyer was not happy 'for any reason'.......please read the posts carefully before jumping onto conclusions. Only when he was not satisfied with the result......but this was taken as usual (hey, most people sell items on this condition, no one really no one sells and takes back the item if the buyer is not happy with the results if it wasn't sharp. This could be due to other reasons aside from lens problems), a refund only when the lens was faulty or not as described (eg. if seller has described lens as super sharp lens), which is the common stand.
Also, it is not common to give refund if the lens was not sharp due to the design......if all tamron lenses of this particular design was not sharp, the buyer really has nothing but himself to blame for not checking out any reviews first.......it is very unreasonable to give the lens back because it is may not be as sharp as you expected (maybe not as sharp as an original brand lens?).
As said before, if you don't know these common known points when buying used things, then......don't buy used.......I am sorry to say, but I hope you learned a lesson from this experience for your next (used) buy.....
Hong Sien
S
sandman
Guest
Hongsien's post:
"There was no indication that the refund would be given when buyer was not happy 'for any reason' "
What do you think "an exchange back" means?
Like I said previously, how other people trade is based on their mutual agreement and I shall not interfere. If the seller thinks the terms of trade are unreasonable then dont trade or state your own conditions. How can so called common standards apply in controversy to standing agreements?
A lesson I have learnt and will be noted for my future dealings.
Anyway, would like to know your opinion on my final question on the 1st page, if you please.
By the way, LiuHao's question above is unanswered.
"There was no indication that the refund would be given when buyer was not happy 'for any reason' "
What do you think "an exchange back" means?
Like I said previously, how other people trade is based on their mutual agreement and I shall not interfere. If the seller thinks the terms of trade are unreasonable then dont trade or state your own conditions. How can so called common standards apply in controversy to standing agreements?
A lesson I have learnt and will be noted for my future dealings.
Anyway, would like to know your opinion on my final question on the 1st page, if you please.
By the way, LiuHao's question above is unanswered.
Thats exactly what some of use were trying to tell you here....there is no such thing as an agreement of a refund when buyer is not happy with unsharp pics not due to any fault of the lens..which is what is very likely the case here. You apparently expected to get a refund for a lens that was not as expected what sharpness concerns, but have you asked yourself is this was due to any fault of the lens? It may well be that all tamron lenses of this design are just not sharp.
I repeat again: the usual agreement in this kind of refunding policies is to refund only when the item is not as described.
Another this: "The problem lies with a broken agreement between 2 individuals to trade. Irregardless of what conditions were set or how DUMB a person is, as long as there is mutual agreement during the point of trade, both sides must abide by it." How can you close an agreement, 'irregardless' of what conditions were set?
The point here is that you have closed an agreement with different conditions than the other party (without telling the other party as well, guess this points to both parties here). Sadly, your conditions were not what is practised and is commonly known AND accepted on the market. To come here and push onto others that YOUR conditions have to be abide to, sounds ridiculous to me......looks like you have alot to learn..........
Hong Sien
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