Bad MO Experience

[stk]

I'm having a very bad experience with the Flash MO here (thread link below) and would like to seek everyone's opinion on this matter.

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13456

In summary... after a long delay by the manufacturer, the flash was finally ready in early Apr and we were supposed to collect in mid Apr. When that collection did not take place, I indicated that I'll want a refund if I cannot collect the flash by end Apr. Till today still no delivery btw.. not that it matters to me since Apr was long over.

Unfortunately the money was paid up front last year and now the organiser refused to give me a refund though he admits that the delay since early Apr was his fault.

Should I be able to get a refund when the organiser fails to deliver goods timely?

I have brought up this matter to the moderators. While they sympathise with my situation, there isn't much else they can do. The purpose of bringing this matter up is not to start a flame war. I'd just like to hear from everyone what is reasonable expectations and what should I do, and perhaps have some guidelines for future MOs.

 

[meng]

I understand your situation and had gone through the related thread.
My stand is very simple:

1) When the goods are ready and the person concerned are too busy, I'll offer to collect on his behalf, with the help of a few others who will be willing to do so, the flash units from the manufacturer.

2) If the goods are already in his place and he's too busy too meet those who ordered, I'll offer to meet him below his block or even right at his doorstep to collect it. I might consider to distribute on his behalf to the rest too.

Just my stand.

Originally posted by stk
I'm having a very bad experience with the Flash MO here (thread link below) and would like to seek everyone's opinion on this matter.

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13456

In summary... after a long delay by the manufacturer, the flash was finally ready in early Apr and we were supposed to collect in mid Apr. When that collection did not take place, I indicated that I'll want a refund if I cannot collect the flash by end Apr. Till today still no delivery btw.. not that it matters to me since Apr was long over.

Unfortunately the money was paid up front last year and now the organiser refused to give me a refund though he admits that the delay since early Apr was his fault.

Should I be able to get a refund when the organiser fails to deliver goods timely?

I have brought up this matter to the moderators. While they sympathise with my situation, there isn't much else they can do. The purpose of bringing this matter up is not to start a flame war. I'd just like to hear from everyone what is reasonable expectations and what should I do, and perhaps have some guidelines for future MOs.

 

[stk]

meng,
Since early Apr, I've repeatedly pm him that I'm even willing to go suntax to collect the flash together.. but still no response..

 

[meng]

I mean I'll or a few others will go down without him..since he had stated that he's too busy.

anyway, now you'll have to see what can be done lor

Originally posted by stk
meng,
Since early Apr, I've repeatedly pm him that I'm even willing to go suntax to collect the flash together.. but still no response..

 

[Klause]

Seems like the MO has been started quite long ago. Actually very long ago... But then, buyer should take the initiative to collect the stuff since the MO owner is doing it for free and out of a goodwill gesture.

However, I do agree that the MO owner must take some responsibility.

Just my 2cents.

I suggest you guys meet one place near his house so you all can collect it. No point delaying any longer.

 

[roygoh]

Since the MO organizer has taken the time and effort and doing this goodwill, I feel that he deserves some consideration.

He is not the manufacturer, and he has to pay the manufacturer up front in order to get the flash made. As such, asking for a refund is kind of mean. It seems to me like he is not making a profit even if he delivers the units on time, so it is not fair to make him bear the cost if the majority of the delay is caused by the manufacturer.

On Zoomer's part, I feel that if he is too busy, he should still give his best estimate of delivery date. If he really could not manage it, he could have asked one of the buyers to take over the organizing, especially after the flash units are completed by the manufacturer already.

To stk, I would urge you to have a little more patience. If the flash is that good, it is probably worth another week or 2 of waiting. Would you offer to help out with the collection and distrubution of the units?

 

[meng]

I agree with roygoh.
Anyway, if Zoomer still can't workout something by next week, I can afford to assist the collection and distribution of the flash units during next SEED, 4th June, next Wednesday. But I need some others help too.

stk, if you are willing, pls help to coordinate a few others so that we can help out in this, you need not help out physically if you are not free/willing though. If not, I'll see how it goes and contact him this weekend and arrange on what could be done.

Pls do note that I have nothing to do with the MO, the organiser, the buyers, nor the manufacturer. I just want to do my part to settle this outstanding issue as long as it don't cause me too much time and trouble.

Originally posted by roygoh
Since the MO organizer has taken the time and effort and doing this goodwill, I feel that he deserves some consideration.

He is not the manufacturer, and he has to pay the manufacturer up front in order to get the flash made. As such, asking for a refund is kind of mean. It seems to me like he is not making a profit even if he delivers the units on time, so it is not fair to make him bear the cost if the majority of the delay is caused by the manufacturer.

On Zoomer's part, I feel that if he is too busy, he should still give his best estimate of delivery date. If he really could not manage it, he could have asked one of the buyers to take over the organizing, especially after the flash units are completed by the manufacturer already.

To stk, I would urge you to have a little more patience. If the flash is that good, it is probably worth another week or 2 of waiting. Would you offer to help out with the collection and distrubution of the units?

 

[Winston]

Well, in this case, the MO involves modification to flash units and not simply a "off-the-shelve" kind of thing like Transcend CF, da protectors...etc

Since it involves some workmanship, I think the manufactuer may have not been prepared for the volume of orders coming in and as such the completion date was delayed.

The manufacturer should have laid down his "time-to-complete" clearly for example: 10 flashes will take 1 week, 20 flashes will take 2 weeks...etc

If the buyer has already paid and work-in-progress for the flash has already begun. (though delayed)
I feel the manufacturer could either try to let another buyer on the list have the flash, if not, then the buyer will just have to wait for the delayed flash to be completed.

 

[stk]

roygoh & meng,
The suggestion to wait another week would be what I've done in Apr.. but it's been another week and yet another week. So when then would u consider it as too much?

winston,
The question at hand is not with the delay by the manufacturer, but rather the delay after the flash is completed by the manufacturer and ready for collection.

 

[meng]

stk,
Zoomer had posted that the tentative collection date will be during next SEED, 4th June, next Wednesday.

My suggestion is that you can check with him whether the collection date is confirmed. If not, me and a few others, see who's willing, can offer to take over the collection and distribution.

I feel that the most important issue now is to settle the collection, not to put any blame or fault on anyone.

I'n not sure what arrangements you had tried to make with him.
But in these kind of MOs, it'll be good to help out one another. What is stopping you from going over to his place and collecting the stuffs and taking over the units for collection and distribution as mentioned by roygoh?

No offends, Just my 2 cents

Originally posted by stk
roygoh & meng,
The suggestion to wait another week would be what I've done in Apr.. but it's been another week and yet another week. So when then would u consider it as too much?

winston,
The question at hand is not with the delay by the manufacturer, but rather the delay after the flash is completed by the manufacturer and ready for collection.

 

[stk]

meng,

There was mention of a collection in mid Apr but then he disappeared for a few weeks after that. For the whole of Apr, I've been asking him to call me to arrange for collection to no avail. So it's not like I wasn't trying to collect from him. As mentioned, I was ready to collect it direct from the manufacturer if he had only called me. He has not called me even once to try to arrange for collection. He doesn't even want to contact me, how to arrange anything?

Perhaps you'll have better luck contacting him.

 

[meng]

I'm not asking anything about past events/happenings.
But what could be done now?

As mentioned in my previous post, he had stated that next Wed will be the tentative collection, why couldn't we start something from there?

Sorry but no offends, u mentioned that you were ready to collect it direct from the manufacturer, but why not collect on behalf of all?

You are asking in this thread what could be done, so why rake up the past and not doing something constructive now?

Originally posted by stk
meng,

There was mention of a collection in mid Apr but then he disappeared for a few weeks after that. For the whole of Apr, I've been asking him to call me to arrange for collection to no avail. So it's not like I wasn't trying to collect from him. As mentioned, I was ready to collect it direct from the manufacturer if he had only called me. He has not called me even once to try to arrange for collection. He doesn't even want to contact me, how to arrange anything?

Perhaps you'll have better luck contacting him.

 

[Lensman]

Doing this out of profit or goodwill, there is a duty to ensure that the transaction goes smoothly. If this is too much a responsibilty to bear, then don't organize a MO.

Take him to small claims court to settle this once and for all.

 

[meng]

this is up to those who ordered and had not received the goods. But why to such an extent when there could have been better means.
IMO, both the organiser and the buyers of the flash units have not done their best in this issue, so there's no logic and rationale in putting all the blame on the MO organiser.

okie, stk since I sense that you are not willing or had gave up on helping to contact zoomer, i'll do it myself and update all next Monday. In the event that I helping to do the distribution next week, I'll only do a one-time off thing, whoever can't collect it will have to make it down to zoomer's place personally.

Originally posted by Lensman
Doing this out of profit or goodwill, there is a duty to ensure that the transaction goes smoothly. If this is too much a responsibilty to bear, then don't organize a MO.

Take him to small claims court to settle this once and for all.

 

[Parchiao]

The moment that you leave money in the hands of someone else without getting your goods immediately, you are screwed. It happens all the time, everyday. You read this in the papers ever so often e.g. furniture shops, restaurants for weddings etc.

If you think that there is some fraud going on, especially if you don't get your stuff the next time round, just rope in a few of the other MO participants and lodge a police comlplaint. Maybe you can approach a police post and see if any criminal charges can be taken against the MO organiser under your circumstances? I don't think it will do you any harm to ask.

BUT

If you do get your stuff by next week, all I can say is 'TOO BAD', cause you did get your stuff.

As for the delay, well, remember this. 'Excuses are like *******s, everyone has one of them'.

 

[roygoh]

I still like to highlight that the MO organizer did it out of goodwill, and I don't believe he cheated the buyers or made a profit out of this exercise. At least that's my understaning from reading the thread.

I understand that the moment a person decides to organize an MO, he has taken on the responsibility to ensure that things go smoothly. But to bring him to small claims court or press criminal charges is too much, I feel. There has not been any evidence of fraud yet.

Let this be a lesson learned by both sides.

For one who intends to organize an MO, be sure to gauge the time and effort required, and factor in all the possible risks (especially for special order items), before taking the plunge.

For those buying, be sure to clarify the terms with the MO organizer. Make agreement with the MO organizer on the terms, and state clearly the expectation from both sides before placing your name on the order list. Ubderstand that there are always risks involved in any transactins.

I agree with meng. Let's look at what can be done now to remedy the problem. I am grateful that he has offered his help.

 

[stk]

I don't think there is any fraudulant intention in this case so let's not go that far.

meng,
Frankly I do not have faith that the tentative date set by zoomer will come true, since he has not come true on his past dates. If not for the 'complaints' coming from me and a couple others, he might well have arranged a collection 3 mths later.

I believe most buyers would be grateful if you help with arranging a collection of goods next SEED. However, for those who cannot make it to next SEED, zoomer should at least make up for his delay by arranging another collection at a reasonable time n place. But guess we'll have to leave that to him..

Yes, I have given up on trying to contact zoomer. There should be effort from both parties to work this out. In the case that simply wasn't true.

roygoh,
As mentioned, one purpose of bringing this up is in hope that some guidelines can be setup for future MO. While no guidelines are fullproof, but at least they should set expectations for all parties involved.

Parchiao,
I've always tried to be careful in dealing on the net. Unfortunately, my trust in who I felt was a trustworthy member of this forum was misplaced. Guess it's another lesson to be learnt.

While I don't think there is fradulant intention, zoomer has our flash and our money, which is probably why he feels no urgency to arrange collection. If the money wasn't paid up front, I'm sure the collection would have taken place by now..

 

[roygoh]

Originally posted by stk
roygoh,
As mentioned, one purpose of bringing this up is in hope that some guidelines can be setup for future MO. While no guidelines are fullproof, but at least they should set expectations for all parties involved.

What I can say now is that the CS admin team is aware of the current issues with MOs being conducted here, and are looking into establishing a guideline.

However, please remember that guidelines are just guidelines, and are not the law. While we will do our best to keep things in order using the guidelines as - well - a guide, the CS admin cannot guarantee that we will be covering every single transaction that goes on here, and cannot be held liable for any fraudulent activities.

I have stressed in other discussions on the importance of doing your own home work. That applies to sellers, buyers as well as MO organizers.

If official guidelines are imcomplete or not present, all parties should state their terms and conditions clearly and make sure there is mutual agreement before going forward with the transaction in order to protect their own interest. That's the best guideline I can come up with for the time being.

I am not siding anyone here. Zoomer could definitely have done a better job. On the other hand, these are possible risks that you could have taken into account before placing your order and making the payment.

In my view, a good analogy for participating in MOs in stock market investment. Before you put your money in a company (MO organizer), you do your necessary research into the company as well as the market it is in (product involved and the current price trend, reputation of MO organizer). However, there is always a risk element.

 

[HOCL]

There are some MOs where the organiser is actually the seller who profits in some way from the sale (actually I wonder why those people call them MOs, but that's a separate issue ... ).

My understand of the MO which you participated is that it is supposedly for an all-win situation, where all participants benefit equally from the economy of scale.

The trust that you put into the organiser, in my opinion, is similar to the trust that you exercise when dealing with your friends. We do mutually benefit from our friendships, don't we? Eg. a friend borrows a flash from you. He is morally obligated to fulfil certain responsibilities. But when things go wrong (eg he kept your flash and disappeared for some time), what will you do?

My advice is the same as what others had said. Learn from it and see how best to turn the situation back into an all-win. Frankly, there is nothing much you can do, except to post your experience and let everyone else make their own conclusion on the conduct of the organiser (in case he does another MO). Beyond that, you can only do the extreme of taking him to court etc.

Some guidelines for future MOs? I think the phrase "Caveat Emptor - Let the Buyer Beware" already explains everything.

Just my 2 cents.

Peace.

 

[RuthBaby]

Originally posted by HOCL
There are some MOs where the organiser is actually the seller who profits in some way from the sale (actually I wonder why those people call them MOs, but that's a separate issue ... ).

My understand of the MO which you participated is that it is supposedly for an all-win situation, where all participants benefit equally from the economy of scale.

The trust that you put into the organiser, in my opinion, is similar to the trust that you exercise when dealing with your friends. We do mutually benefit from our friendships, don't we? Eg. a friend borrows a flash from you. He is morally obligated to fulfil certain responsibilities. But when things go wrong (eg he kept your flash and disappeared for some time), what will you do?

My advice is the same as what others had said. Learn from it and see how best to turn the situation back into an all-win. Frankly, there is nothing much you can do, except to post your experience and let everyone else make their own conclusion on the conduct of the organiser (in case he does another MO). Beyond that, you can only do the extreme of taking him to court etc.

Some guidelines for future MOs? I think the phrase "Caveat Emptor - Let the Buyer Beware" already explains everything.

Just my 2 cents.

Peace.

:thumbsup: