Royale With Cheese
Senior Member
looks like badly under-exposed to me & the scanner is trying to auto correct that.
Are these grains or over sharpening?
- Thread starter Scandiacus
- Start date
sim4nee
Senior Member
Cannot agree more. Check the neg before pointing finger. From the look of it the film was under exposed but yet scanner tried to pick up info so resulted in this(just like Chiif said)
Anyway quality of scanner won't help much either at this stage.
Guess when u scan at triple d, de scanning is not always done by uncle mike? But i do realise the scans there tend to be a little too contrasty or deepen..i don really think uncle will dedicate the scanning services based on individuals negative.
Do speak to him about ur prob n c if he can do a rescan for u.
Do speak to him about ur prob n c if he can do a rescan for u.
Before we decry the services of lab, let us understand some facts about scanning:
1. Scanning negatives is a process of turning analog media into digital. Just as any conversion, it is not a straight forward easy process. It requires skill and time to get good results. Just like sound recording, there are machines in studio that cost hundred of thousands of dollars to make sure Kit Chan sound as nice in the studio as on CD.
2. Commercial lab scanners scan at resolution good enough to produce 4R images. That means 4x6 inches. At that resolution, it's even lower resolution than what your cheapest monitor at 1024x768 can view. It's even lower than iPad screen resolution. That is why you see so much grain and feel that the images are over sharpened. But if you print the image on 4R photo paper, you will find that it's fine.
3. The default resolution is that low and if you want anything higher than that, you need to pay for extra services. WHY? It takes very long time to scan at high resolution. If you have the V700 scanner, scanning just a 35mm B&W negatives at 4800dpi will take more than 5 min. Just imagine that the lab does this for 36 frames for a roll. How long will it take? 180min, 3 hours. Just imagine, if they hire a part time student, sit in front of the machine, do nothing but just scan negatives for customers, paying $7 an hour just for labour (I doubt not many students want to work part time with that kind of money), not counting machine cost, electricity, CPF and shop space and rental, would you pay $21 for a roll of 35mm film scan at 4800dpi?
4. Before you ask for the sky, let be realistic and ask, what do you want the scan for. If you want it to print on 4R, then, the lab scan do just fine. But if you want to share on flickr or facebook, where most of us have at least 21" monitors, then, lab scans are just not good enough.
5. I often tell customers, if you want to play film, the first thing that you should be getting is NOT a camera. NOT a RF, NOT a Bessa, NOT a Leica. Go to Challenger get a Scanner first. Borrow your aunty's or uncle's or grandpa's old point & shoot or great grandpa's Rolleiflex, test out a roll and see whether you can get used to the process and workflow first. Today photographers have been spoilt with the instant gratification of digital revolution, hence cannot take the slower workflow of analog film. Hence, film is not for everyone. Bringing film to lab, thinking and expecting images to be as good as or better than 5D Mk II is just not realistic. And thinking that by shooting film, images are going to look as good as Ansel Adam's is just wishful thinking.
6. Scanning is an art. To master it, one need a lot of practice and time. The result will be more satisfying than shooting in digital. Why? Because in the process, you will appreciate your picture more, understand why you take that picture as you slow down and think before you shoot. Furthermore, the latitude of film is much wider than digital files, you can recover shadow details more than with digital files.
7. Hope that helps. Before we say some shops provide bad scanning service, ask ourselves what are we looking for. If you want a good steak like Mortons' , don't expect to get it from the $6.50 sirloin steak at Tampines St 21 Blk 201 Coffee Shop.
1. Scanning negatives is a process of turning analog media into digital. Just as any conversion, it is not a straight forward easy process. It requires skill and time to get good results. Just like sound recording, there are machines in studio that cost hundred of thousands of dollars to make sure Kit Chan sound as nice in the studio as on CD.
2. Commercial lab scanners scan at resolution good enough to produce 4R images. That means 4x6 inches. At that resolution, it's even lower resolution than what your cheapest monitor at 1024x768 can view. It's even lower than iPad screen resolution. That is why you see so much grain and feel that the images are over sharpened. But if you print the image on 4R photo paper, you will find that it's fine.
3. The default resolution is that low and if you want anything higher than that, you need to pay for extra services. WHY? It takes very long time to scan at high resolution. If you have the V700 scanner, scanning just a 35mm B&W negatives at 4800dpi will take more than 5 min. Just imagine that the lab does this for 36 frames for a roll. How long will it take? 180min, 3 hours. Just imagine, if they hire a part time student, sit in front of the machine, do nothing but just scan negatives for customers, paying $7 an hour just for labour (I doubt not many students want to work part time with that kind of money), not counting machine cost, electricity, CPF and shop space and rental, would you pay $21 for a roll of 35mm film scan at 4800dpi?
4. Before you ask for the sky, let be realistic and ask, what do you want the scan for. If you want it to print on 4R, then, the lab scan do just fine. But if you want to share on flickr or facebook, where most of us have at least 21" monitors, then, lab scans are just not good enough.
5. I often tell customers, if you want to play film, the first thing that you should be getting is NOT a camera. NOT a RF, NOT a Bessa, NOT a Leica. Go to Challenger get a Scanner first. Borrow your aunty's or uncle's or grandpa's old point & shoot or great grandpa's Rolleiflex, test out a roll and see whether you can get used to the process and workflow first. Today photographers have been spoilt with the instant gratification of digital revolution, hence cannot take the slower workflow of analog film. Hence, film is not for everyone. Bringing film to lab, thinking and expecting images to be as good as or better than 5D Mk II is just not realistic. And thinking that by shooting film, images are going to look as good as Ansel Adam's is just wishful thinking.
6. Scanning is an art. To master it, one need a lot of practice and time. The result will be more satisfying than shooting in digital. Why? Because in the process, you will appreciate your picture more, understand why you take that picture as you slow down and think before you shoot. Furthermore, the latitude of film is much wider than digital files, you can recover shadow details more than with digital files.
7. Hope that helps. Before we say some shops provide bad scanning service, ask ourselves what are we looking for. If you want a good steak like Mortons' , don't expect to get it from the $6.50 sirloin steak at Tampines St 21 Blk 201 Coffee Shop.
Well said, but funny how the topic digressed from just asking if the artefacts were grains or sharpening artefacts.. haha..
Scandiacus
Senior Member
Checked the neg against the light with a magnifying glass, looks pretty okay. Overall, the negs are not really that thin, day shots are quite thick as well as few night shots, except for two or three night shots which are quite thin and transparent.
I think they changed their settings recently. Went pass his shop and he was outside so had a small chat with him as his machine was outside the shop as well. Told me that they are installing a new machine.
Saw the exif of my scans after 2-3 weeks back and they changed from Fujifilm to Noritsu Koki. Previously my scans was flatter and pretty soft, which I'm quite comfortable with, until they changed the scanner and my scans started to look really contrasty and sharp.
Wow...many thanks for the advice! Especially on the resolution part.
zk-diq
Senior Member
Kekekekeke. Hee Hee Hee Hee.
The glass plate itself is not up to optical spec, how to have at 4800 dpi?
Scandiacus
Senior Member
Thedraperyfalls
New Member
Hi guys, just though I'd chip in my two-cents' worth.
Disclaimer - I'm no expert, I've been patronizing said lab for as long as I remember and I like proprietor.
They have always delivered, but recently even my untrained eyes have detected a problem.
I wonder if it's due to their new equipment or simply the new staff that are handling the scanning duties.
Here are some samples. 100% straight out of the scans with no post-processing.
Not even white-balance correction is done.
Scan from lab:
Self-scan from V700.
Top: V700
Bottom: Lab
Resolution-wise, the lab's scan is lower, which is expected and absolutely understandable.
You can pay more if you want a higher resolution scan from the lab.
But what's puzzling is the gross over-sharpening, and the over-exposure. Just look at the sky in the lab scan, it's blown to hell and almost all details in the sky is lost.
Disclaimer - I'm no expert, I've been patronizing said lab for as long as I remember and I like proprietor.
They have always delivered, but recently even my untrained eyes have detected a problem.
I wonder if it's due to their new equipment or simply the new staff that are handling the scanning duties.
Here are some samples. 100% straight out of the scans with no post-processing.
Not even white-balance correction is done.
Scan from lab:
Self-scan from V700.
Top: V700
Bottom: Lab
Resolution-wise, the lab's scan is lower, which is expected and absolutely understandable.
You can pay more if you want a higher resolution scan from the lab.
But what's puzzling is the gross over-sharpening, and the over-exposure. Just look at the sky in the lab scan, it's blown to hell and almost all details in the sky is lost.
I've had nothing but great service from Triple D so far, but I did experience the same sharpening artefacts here highlighted by Scandiacus. This, unfortunately, is not a underexposure issue as many had pointed out as it was a roll of 400NC, and I have the habit of overexposing print film by 1/3 to 1/2 stop. Like many, I tend to self reflect on my shooting habits before I take up issues with the lab.
I did a quick check with Uncle Mike and it seems that the algorithms on the Noritsu might need some tweaking, seeing how it is new to his workflow. He did a rescan for me on the Fuji Frontier and the results were much better - same as those I have come to expect from Triple D. Uncle Mike mentioned that if customers prefer the Frontier results, they can continue to request for the Frontier machine for their scans.
I guess if we give him a bit more time, we'll get fantastic scans from the new Nortisu. FYI please, fellow rangefinder people
I did a quick check with Uncle Mike and it seems that the algorithms on the Noritsu might need some tweaking, seeing how it is new to his workflow. He did a rescan for me on the Fuji Frontier and the results were much better - same as those I have come to expect from Triple D. Uncle Mike mentioned that if customers prefer the Frontier results, they can continue to request for the Frontier machine for their scans.
I guess if we give him a bit more time, we'll get fantastic scans from the new Nortisu. FYI please, fellow rangefinder people
Scandiacus
Senior Member
I've had nothing but great service from Triple D so far, but I did experience the same sharpening artefacts here highlighted by Scandiacus. This, unfortunately, is not a underexposure issue as many had pointed out as it was a roll of 400NC, and I have the habit of overexposing print film by 1/3 to 1/2 stop. Like many, I tend to self reflect on my shooting habits before I take up issues with the lab.
I did a quick check with Uncle Mike and it seems that the algorithms on the Noritsu might need some tweaking, seeing how it is new to his workflow. He did a rescan for me on the Fuji Frontier and the results were much better - same as those I have come to expect from Triple D. Uncle Mike mentioned that if customers prefer the Frontier results, they can continue to request for the Frontier machine for their scans.
I guess if we give him a bit more time, we'll get fantastic scans from the new Nortisu. FYI please, fellow rangefinder people
Hey there I accompanied my friend to rescan his film at Triple D. He gave Triple D a call previously and Uncle Mike agreed to rescan on the Fuji Frontier. Results out were pretty nice.
Currently he's keeping my friend's negs for a while to show the Noritsu guys the different results from the Noritsu and Fuji scanner. Maybe they will tweak the settings of the Noritsu to the settings of the Fuji.
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