Another discussion on "requesting for budget photography services"

[sfoto100]

Look bro, I'm not taking sides here, and I'm not going into details of what is the price of bread and so on... The thing is you cant move the market.

The industry is bigger than you, nothing you say here can change it. If there is market for 200 photo session, Nothing you say here can change that. Do you understand what I am saying? Industry and market is govern by economics force, supply and demand, so stop defending it, it is useless

ya, indeed it is hard to defend the industry... not that one cannot try..

during the film days, it is not easy to take pics.. now with dslr, we have instant feedback.. it makes it alot easier.. and i think i agree with u that now more ppl owns dslr (though i based on guessing only)

but i still believe the pros will surive .. bcos they can offer something unique and they should

 

[Maykind]

ya, indeed it is hard to defend the industry... not that one cannot try..

during the film days, it is not easy to take pics.. now with dslr, we have instant feedback.. it makes it alot easier.. and i think i agree with u that now more ppl owns dslr (though i based on guessing only)

but i still believe the pros will surive .. bcos they can offer something unique and they should

definitely, the pros and all the ppl who can think of something unique, better or putting creative or extra effort to differentiate himself from other will have higher chance to survive.

 

[sfoto100]

Due to the perpetual existence of low-ballers and people who undercut the market, clients will almost always manage to find someone cheaper and better in today's world. Of course some will be unlucky and find a cheap and sucky photographer, but don't tell me you pay high price you confirm will get a good one, this is also not true lah. This is not really wrong or a problem, but nature at work. Thus rates will be marginalized to some extent or another, sooner or later.

i attended one pro wedding photog talk, i kinda of like his character. He said, pls don't criticize photog who offer low price package, bcos there are people who can't afford higher prices and they should deserve a wedding photography service too.... which is true... bcos they are lower income families..

but catchlights is working from the side of protecting photographers.. in the end, i see all of you guys meant well... i learned alot from the diff views presented by all of you.

 

[catchlights]

don't get me wrong, my point is;
photographers, whether is professionals, part-timers, or whatever,

Go and work out your cost when you charge for your service, you don't know for every $100 you made, your cost is above $100 or below $100
to make a profit, you have to charge above your cost, that is business basic 101.

no one know your exact cost, that is for you to find out,
and if you already know your cost is higher than what your earn, yet don't mind doing it...
to be very honest, no one can stop you, it is you own choice.

nobody has responsibility of your well being except yourself.

 

[catchlights]

speak of protecting industry,

it happens all the while, from East India Company, till modern day Multiple National Corporations, tell me who hasn't protect their own interests?

Don't you even protect your own job too, do not allow anyone come and sabotage your livelihood?

 

[catchlights]

and speaking of photographers in different levels of price tier.

They all serve different level of customers, let say we take wedding photography as an example,

there are $5000 package photographers, $3000 package photographers, $1000 package photographers and sub $1000 package photographers,
the higher price photographers go, will have less competition, and the lower two tiers are make up the mass.

customers seldom cross over to the next tiers unless they find more valuable products or service from there.

$5000 package photographers exist because there is enough $3000 package photographers to support them,
and $3000 package photographers exist because there is enough $1000 package photographers to support them,
likewise the same to the $1000 package photographers, somebody at the bottom to support them.


many people are talking about soon the market will make a turn, so, if the market is bad and many wedding customers cut down on their spending,
many photographers will have to adapt to the change,
$5000 package photographers adjust their price downward,
$3000 package photographers follow suit
and the $1000 package photographers also adjust price accordingly,
guess who are those photographers eating sh1t?


anyway, the is how the market force works.
those who can't adapt the change will not able to survive.

 

[kandinsky]

I don't think government regulation is in the picture at all. What's going on in this thread sounds more like an appeal for more self-regulation + self-awareness. This piece is a good read about how all markets are technically regulated in some way or another. (Regulation Red Herring : The Freeman : Foundation for Economic Education)

Expecting people not to speak up for something they care about (in this case, their trade/industry) is just as unrealistic as expecting market forces to conform to one's own needs and preferences. But it's true, one can shout all they want, and there'll still be people who may prefer to play by their own rules. So be it. Win some, lose some. The hope is that a couple along the way who may be interested in a long-term sustainable approach may benefit.

A timely post from Vincent Laforet on the subject:

The most important thing to take away from this is that you need to be a responsible "professional" if you will, and know your C.O.D.B. when bidding on a job.

The truth is, everyone’s C.O.D.B. is different – and that’s absolutely fine and that will always be the case.

The irresponsible thing is no knowing what your number is.

Why?

When another colleague of yours bids $6,450 for the same job you’re being asked to shoot for $1,000, and you accept it, you are not only doing yourself a disservice, but also the fellow freelancer you are bidding against – not to mention the industry.

This isn’t a discussion on setting higher rates, or what rates "should be," those will always be different for people of different levels of experience and skill levels. This is a discussion on being responsible enough to know your own C.O.D.B. so that you are making good decisions on what to bid on jobs and when you’re actually losing money on a job, versus making a profit.

via:How to succeed as a creative long term: know your C.O.D.B. « Vincent Laforet's Blog

-----

@catchlights Not a bad idea. Maybe some of us can consider freelance plumbing for supplementary income.

*Looks up plumbing courses*

via: http://www.ite.edu.sg/pv_obj_cache/pv_obj_id_63F10B672BFA071DD907126CAB965B9AFA560000

 

[surrephoto]

ya, indeed it is hard to defend the industry... not that one cannot try..

during the film days, it is not easy to take pics.. now with dslr, we have instant feedback.. it makes it alot easier.. and i think i agree with u that now more ppl owns dslr (though i based on guessing only)

but i still believe the pros will surive .. bcos they can offer something unique and they should

Actually with the ease of D-SLR, we are expected to do much more than film days including post production, colour correction compared to the older days. There is more to do after a shoot. This is one reason why many old-timers gave up. Last time the labs would do the printing & colour correction for you. Oh yah and nowadays customers like to view picture at 100% and expect perfect sharpness.

 

[surrephoto]

and speaking of photographers in different levels of price tier.

They all serve different level of customers, let say we take wedding photography as an example,

there are $5000 package photographers, $3000 package photographers, $1000 package photographers and sub $1000 package photographers,
the higher price photographers go, will have less competition, and the lower two tiers are make up the mass.

customers seldom cross over to the next tiers unless they find more valuable products or service from there.

$5000 package photographers exist because there is enough $3000 package photographers to support them,
and $3000 package photographers exist because there is enough $1000 package photographers to support them,
likewise the same to the $1000 package photographers, somebody at the bottom to support them.


many people are talking about soon the market will make a turn, so, if the market is bad and many wedding customers cut down on their spending,
many photographers will have to adapt to the change,
$5000 package photographers adjust their price downward,
$3000 package photographers follow suit
and the $1000 package photographers also adjust price accordingly,
guess who are those photographers eating sh1t?


anyway, the is how the market force works.
those who can't adapt the change will not able to survive.

I don't agree. Once you are in the sub-$1000 price range, price movements are very small since clients in that range may be more calculative, that means a $800 photographer would be considered substantially more expensive than a $700 photographer... just as a $1000 photographer might be considered a premium over a $800 photographer to these couples/clients, and yes I agree clients will seldom cross tiers but it is certainly more common for a client to move down. Since some sub-$1000 photographers like myself are surviving somewhat, a small change will not be equivalent to us eating "sh1t". More importantly is that I need to shoot more jobs than someone who charges higher than myself for the equivalent work to break even/profit for the year. For myself, a consistent flow of income is important. If based on the assumption that clients seldom cross tiers, than it would be no issue to charge whatever pricing tier, since different clients are looking at different types of photographers & price. To some people paying more is a form of emotional assurance. It is not like a sub-$100 / hr photographer will never become a $100 / hr photographer, it may or may not happen. If you are doing well at sub-$100 / hr rates, I don't think you will be earning less an average poly-grad or taxi driver after account the equipment & travel costs. Equipments depreciate, but they still hold substantial value over 2 or 3 years. To be honestly the greatest attraction of freelance photography is the lifestyle, ever changing locations and shooting experience, & the ability to plan one's schedule (e.g. take the assignment or not, fly anytime you want).

 

[catchlights]

I don't agree. Once you are in the sub-$1000 price range, price movements are very small since clients in that range may be more calculative, that means a $800 photographer would be considered substantially more expensive than a $700 photographer... just as a $1000 photographer might be considered a premium over a $800 photographer to these couples/clients, and yes I agree clients will seldom cross tiers but it is certainly more common for a client to move down. Since some sub-$1000 photographers like myself are surviving somewhat, a small change will not be equivalent to us eating "sh1t". More importantly is that I need to shoot more jobs than someone who charges higher than myself for the equivalent work to break even/profit for the year. For myself, a consistent flow of income is important. If based on the assumption that clients seldom cross tiers, than it would be no issue to charge whatever pricing tier, since different clients are looking at different types of photographers & price. To some people paying more is a form of emotional assurance. It is not like a sub-$100 / hr photographer will never become a $100 / hr photographer, it may or may not happen. If you are doing well at sub-$100 / hr rates, I don't think you will be earning less an average poly-grad or taxi driver after account the equipment & travel costs. Equipments depreciate, but they still hold substantial value over 2 or 3 years. To be honestly the greatest attraction of freelance photography is the lifestyle, ever changing locations and shooting experience, & the ability to plan one's schedule (e.g. take the assignment or not, fly anytime you want).

to stay on the your current price tier is your own choice isn't it?

anyway, the economy circle is about 10 years, we will see how lar.

 

[Maykind]

Look... I know you all here have a good heart trying to defend the industry and all but what i can not accept is that when someone or some ppl in this thread.... starting to bash clients/customers saying something like pay peanut get monkey and all sort of things like that... I think this is wrong, you are shifting blame because of tough to ppl who are looking for a bargain.

Let's face it this is a tough industry because entry barrier is so low, ppl with a dslr and couple of lenses can already jump into the industry and you guys are bashing customers who want a cheap service? That is just so wrong....

 

[Maykind]

and speaking of photographers in different levels of price tier.

They all serve different level of customers, let say we take wedding photography as an example,

there are $5000 package photographers, $3000 package photographers, $1000 package photographers and sub $1000 package photographers,
the higher price photographers go, will have less competition, and the lower two tiers are make up the mass.

customers seldom cross over to the next tiers unless they find more valuable products or service from there.

$5000 package photographers exist because there is enough $3000 package photographers to support them,
and $3000 package photographers exist because there is enough $1000 package photographers to support them,
likewise the same to the $1000 package photographers, somebody at the bottom to support them.


many people are talking about soon the market will make a turn, so, if the market is bad and many wedding customers cut down on their spending,
many photographers will have to adapt to the change,
$5000 package photographers adjust their price downward,
$3000 package photographers follow suit
and the $1000 package photographers also adjust price accordingly,
guess who are those photographers eating sh1t?


anyway, the is how the market force works.
those who can't adapt the change will not able to survive.

This is only one probable scenario bro, you and I know that there are millions of scenario out there, ppl can get creative like instead of i give you 10 pictures, i can give you 12 pictures for the same price. I dont need to lower my price but I can give you more pictures. THERE ARE MANY COUNTLESS PRICING/PACKAGES YOU CAN PLAY WITH IN THE MARKET...

PS : This is not how the market forces is working, this is just an example

 

[surrephoto]

to stay on the your current price tier is your own choice isn't it?

anyway, the economy circle is about 10 years, we will see how lar.

Of course i would need to change with the times to survive. Either make increase my rates to suit my changing lifestyle and depreciating dollar, or modify my workflow to make my currently price still work.

 

[atsui]

Not quite sure what this quote has anything to do with the discussion here, but I have a better one here

Demand and Supply curve reflects the decisions made by all the individuals in the marketplace.
When the decision make by each market participant changes, it can also change the Demand and Supply curve.

What each person does, will ultimately change the market.

 

[catchlights]

let me share something;
I always wanted to do stock photography, back in the days of 90's
but didn't start because I told myself these;
My skills is no good,
I don't know what to shoot,
I don't have the time,
I don't have the money to travel to all the exotic places,
it looks very complicated to submit photos;
I don't have awesome cameras

I even visited a stock photo library and they ask me to submit my works,
but still, I didn't start to do anything about it.


fast forward to mid 2000's

the era of blooming micro stock agencies,
many people start submitting photos to such agencies,
and I still didn't get into stock photography,

and more excuses that I told myself,
I don't have the photoshop skills,
how much can made with US$0.25 per download?
so noting happen again.


coming to late year 2000.

I decided to start, but people told me that the golden era is over.
well, so be it. anyway, I told myself; is now or never.
I start with 7-8 agencies on the first years, with about 100 over photos.
the first year really pathetic, with all the efforts I put in, barely make US$200++ (from mid 2009 to mid 2010)
the second year I decided to go exclusive with only one agency, people told me I should diversify my portfolio on many agencies.

but to go exclusive is not that easy, I need to remove all my photos from the rest of agencies first,
and one agency required contributors need to keep their photos from six months upon uploaded. So I waited for six months.

the agency which I decided to sign up is the most toughest agency to get your photos accepted,
I know many photographers have given up upload their photos there.

finally, I become an exclusive contributor of istockphoto.
and I never though I can make 3 figures royalty so fast when I start with stock photography, and I'm delighted.
but this is not the end.
in this year, I start moving toward 4 figures royalty, and I have organize two minilypse events so far. (I maybe the first and only exclusive contributor organized minilypse in Singapore)


so photographers;

dream big,
set your goal and work hard for it!
noting comes easy but the path will open for you.
the only limitation is you set on yourself.

 

[catchlights]

why do we have a Photo Biz section in a forum where most of the members are amateurs and hobbyists?

this is to help anyone who keen in to know more on the business aspects of photography, and we are lucky that many members who are already in the industry, willing to spend their time and efforts, giving advise and guidance to members who need help.
they are not looking for any recognition, business, or reward in any forms.

I myself is a full time professionals, so are many active contributors here, we spending a lot of our time, putting our blood sweat and tears in our business, been through over the years. and today we still standing.
we don't mind sharing our mistakes, failure, and pain, simply hope that those who willing to listen, don't have to make the same mistakes we have made before.

over the years in this industry, and in this forum, I see many people come and go, countless of them, can't remember their names, or faces.
but there are also many of them who make their way, make their name in this industry, from nobody to somebody.
one thing these photographers have in common is, they dream BIG, and they work very hard for that.

 

[Maykind]

Demand and Supply curve reflects the decisions made by all the individuals in the marketplace.
When the decision make by each market participant changes, it can also change the Demand and Supply curve.

What each person does, will ultimately change the market.

This is what I'm trying to say from the beginning...

Why you guys need to tell people what pricing is acceptable and what not?

Why you guys need to bash customer for looking for a cheap service?

"LET THE MARKET DECIDES WHAT IS THE PRICE"

 

[sfoto100]

let me share something;
I always wanted to do stock photography, back in the days of 90's
but didn't start because I told myself these;
My skills is no good,
I don't know what to shoot,
I don't have the time,
I don't have the money to travel to all the exotic places,
it looks very complicated to submit photos;
I don't have awesome cameras

I even visited a stock photo library and they ask me to submit my works,
but still, I didn't start to do anything about it.


fast forward to mid 2000's

the era of blooming micro stock agencies,
many people start submitting photos to such agencies,
and I still didn't get into stock photography,

and more excuses that I told myself,
I don't have the photoshop skills,
how much can made with US$0.25 per download?
so noting happen again.


coming to late year 2000.

I decided to start, but people told me that the golden era is over.
well, so be it. anyway, I told myself; is now or never.
I start with 7-8 agencies on the first years, with about 100 over photos.
the first year really pathetic, with all the efforts I put in, barely make US$200++ (from mid 2009 to mid 2010)
the second year I decided to go exclusive with only one agency, people told me I should diversify my portfolio on many agencies.

but to go exclusive is not that easy, I need to remove all my photos from the rest of agencies first,
and one agency required contributors need to keep their photos from six months upon uploaded. So I waited for six months.

the agency which I decided to sign up is the most toughest agency to get your photos accepted,
I know many photographers have given up upload their photos there.

finally, I become an exclusive contributor of istockphoto.
and I never though I can make 3 figures royalty so fast when I start with stock photography, and I'm delighted.
but this is not the end.
in this year, I start moving toward 4 figures royalty, and I have organize two minilypse events so far. (I maybe the first and only exclusive contributor organized minilypse in Singapore)


so photographers;

dream big,
set your goal and work hard for it!
noting comes easy but the path will open for you.
the only limitation is you set on yourself.

tks catchlights for sharing, this is invaluable. tks from deep of my heart

 

[Maykind]

why do we have a Photo Biz section in a forum where most of the members are amateurs and hobbyists?

this is to help anyone who keen in to know more on the business aspects of photography, and we are lucky that many members who are already in the industry, willing to spend their time and efforts, giving advise and guidance to members who need help.
they are not looking for any recognition, business, or reward in any forms.

I myself is a full time professionals, so are many active contributors here, we spending a lot of our time, putting our blood sweat and tears in our business, been through over the years. and today we still standing.
we don't mind sharing our mistakes, failure, and pain, simply hope that those who willing to listen, don't have to make the same mistakes we have made before.

over the years in this industry, and in this forum, I see many people come and go, countless of them, can't remember their names, or faces.
but there are also many of them who make their way, make their name in this industry, from nobody to somebody.
one thing these photographers have in common is, they dream BIG, and they work very hard for that.

Congratulations Bro.... I believe you are doing good in this business

 

[sjackal]

This is what I'm trying to say from the beginning...

Why you guys need to tell people what pricing is acceptable and what not?

Why you guys need to bash customer for looking for a cheap service?

"LET THE MARKET DECIDES WHAT IS THE PRICE"

Why you so emo over the thread? Nothing to do with you right?

The pro photographers have their reason; safe guard their interests.

What is your reason? Just curious.

If you are looking for cheap photography services, a thread like this won't save a lot of cheap photographers, so you still be able to find cheap deals. Don't worry too much ok?