Another discussion on "requesting for budget photography services"

[saberlancer]

...
If you have little experience in covering event, start to price yourself at $60 or $85 per hour rate.

That actually feels high, is that market rate? So what rates do you feel is right for pg with some experience and very experienced?

If no answer, and goes back to 'Every pg is different', then its again back to square one..lol

 

[JasonB]

That actually feels high, is that market rate? So what rates do you feel is right for pg with some experience and very experienced?

IMHO, that is low.

I pay my seconds $100 per hour, and the good ones $150 per hour.

Do a general search around, you will see the good wedding photographers locally are around $250 per hour average and the famed ones are commonly $350 per hour and up and $500 per hour is not uncommon.

Please, this country has the world's highest concentrate of rich people. Spending $5000 means nothing to some clients, when they spend the money they want to feel important, be happy, and get the BEST things their money can buy. Its that simple yet at the same time extremely difficult to grasp for many people. Which is a good thing to some and bad thing to others. You choose which side you want to be.

 

[catchlights]

That actually feels high, is that market rate? So what rates do you feel is right for pg with some experience and very experienced?

If no answer, and goes back to 'Every pg is different', then its again back to square one..lol

on the very very basic is photographers able to cover all his expenses including labour, (cost covering)

the next level should be able to make him feel good, get up from the bed and take the job, (profit)

above this will be things are value added, eg, good reputation, talent, customer service etc, (branding)


as in today living standard, with basic gears set up, computer hardware and software, marketing and advertisement expenses, operating cost etc, $100 per hour could only just barely cover.
don't forget for every billable hours, photographers will have to spend 3-5 hours on it, some time it could be more, so be realistic, most photographers working 40-50 hours a week, just able to charge for 10 hours or less.

it is the same for part timers, they only have less time to spend on their part time job, all the more they need to charge enough to cover the job.

 

[user12343]

Maybe his biz chup lup long before he posted this $200 ad?

 

[catchlights]

don't get so fixated about following the so call "Market Rate",

how do you know whether can you survive by following the market rate?
don't forget when the supply is more than demand, the buyers can manipulate the price easily,
So what if the market rate is way below your operating cost, what are you going to do about it?

you have to work out your own cost, set your own price, follow this as guideline, https://nppa.org/calculator

so if you need to shoot 50 weddings a year at $1500 each assignments in order to break even,
but you only can get 40 weddings a year, you will lose $15000 on the expecting sale.


if you plan to charge $750.00, you will need more than 100 weddings in order to break even, cos each time you show up at a wedding, there is additional expenses, and you need more time to work on each weddings as well.
what if you only able to get 60 weddings to shoot this year, you will lose $30000 on the expecting sale, not to mention you incur more expenses and man hours by shooting 20 more weddings.


photographers will have price their rate right in order to sustain their business,
the strategy of price low to sell more is not suitable for us, we are selling services, not goods,
and we are not machine, we only have limited working hours, limited energy, limited resource.




there is no better way to kill yourself by pricing yourself cheap.

 

[sfoto100]

$200 for 4 hours is low.. because the cost of dslr n lens and software is not cheap.. effort n time spent learning photography is not cheap.. if you drop your camera and lens and damaged it, this low cost can't cover the equipment alone.. and such things happened!

 

[cyrusshutter]

I usually don't even bother when I see a "lowball" photography service request. Thanks catchlight for opening up this discussion.

One of the main reasons why consumers probably do not understand is the amount of work that photographers put into for the whole workflow besides pressing the trigger and getting people in to place for photoshoots. Enough is explained in various photo forums online that equipment deteriorate and photographers also need to pay their overheads to operate the business.

Being a free market, the best thing we can do is to also educate clients / prospects but ratewise, it is really very much to the individual so there's no ballpark figures persay.

 

[red eye]

I did a search on this CloverKG's postings and threads.

And found out that he is offering wedding photography services himself:
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/phot...55-acidacidgrass-photography.html#post8306728

If he is looking for a photographer for his own wedding for such rates, it clearly shows he don't appreciate the value of this field nor respects his peers, nor see any importance in his own work or his own wedding.

If he is looking for a photographer to shoot his work for him, such actions hints at a manipulative nature against other photographers, dishonesty against his own wedding clients, or his unreliability in flaking out at the last minute, or just plain incompetence.

I looked at the quality of his 'work', sorry, cannot make it, still a point and shoot guy playing with photoshop effects. Pity the wedding couples. If you aim this kind of price, you get this kind of work and this kind of result.

I have nothing good to say for this person. Sorry.

I am sorry if my post hurts any feelings. I am sorry.

seen his photos...

 

[sjackal]

IMHO, Clubsnap IS the place to hunt for cheap services.

Thus I think Services Wanted section should be fully regulated by the mods, I trust the mods are industry knowledgeable people with experience and good sense to exercise discretion what threads to weed out and who to ban for posting such ads. Save the situation while we still can...

 

[snits]

You get what you paid for. You might get quality service/products for low price, who says that's not possible? Who are you to dictate a person's willingness to suffer loss in return for the exposure? Who are you to say he prefers to learn lesser than others? Who says a client prefer to pay premium over a suspicious low baller? Everything is possible.

This community should be built upon a place where all will come here to look for all things, not just market rate, pricey things. Regulating it is a big mistake, it's a free Market. Willing buyer, willing seller.

 

[catchlights]

You get what you paid for. You might get quality service/products for low price, who says that's not possible? Who are you to dictate a person's willingness to suffer loss in return for the exposure? Who are you to say he prefers to learn lesser than others? Who says a client prefer to pay premium over a suspicious low baller? Everything is possible.

This community should be built upon a place where all will come here to look for all things, not just market rate, pricey things. Regulating it is a big mistake, it's a free Market. Willing buyer, willing seller.

Yes, it is a free market,
Many wedding photographers are doing 100k sales per year.

portrait photographer are offering 4 figures portrait sessions.

I heard a wedding photographer is planning to offer 5 figures wedding package soon.

Everything is possible.

 

[catchlights]

Everything is possible.


if photographers have the talent, the skills, the ambition, than why short-changing yourself?


to those who just start out, equip yourself with the basis photography knowledge and skills first, put your time, money and efforts on these areas first.
then build on your business skills.
don't be naive to believe that having a pro grade gear is good to go.

this is an old video, but it is always good to watch it again and again.

[video=youtube;kTqgoL2kHTI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTqgoL2kHTI&hl=en-GB&gl=SG[/video]



this blog post even older, it is from a same photographer who tried, failed, tried again, and again, I think this is really relevant, and inspiring, please spend a few minutes reading this.

I've moved the blog –> zackarias.com/blog » Cheap Photographers Only Kill Themselves, Not The Industry.

 

[richiemccaw1]

Everything is possible.


if photographers have the talent, the skills, the ambition, than why short-changing yourself?


to those who just start out, equip yourself with the basis photography knowledge and skills first, put your time, money and efforts on these areas first.
then build on your business skills.
don't be naive to believe that having a pro grade gear is good to go.

this is an old video, but it is always good to watch it again and again.

[video=youtube;kTqgoL2kHTI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTqgoL2kHTI&hl=en-GB&gl=SG[/video]



this blog post even older, it is from a same photographer who tried, failed, tried again, and again, I think this is really relevant, and inspiring, please spend a few minutes reading this.

I've moved the blog –> zackarias.com/blog » Cheap Photographers Only Kill Themselves, Not The Industry.

Im not looking to move into the photography business at all but thanks for these. Very helpful and insightful. At least for the GAS inflicted people (I'm almost out of it). Thanks.

 

[kei1309]

or perhaps, TS has to pull out last minute and needs a replacement, but is taking a cut. that's why he's offering $200.

anyways i saw his photos. not bad... XMM Style Photography.

 

[surrephoto]

There are many tiers of photographers. There are many styles of photography. There are bridal shops paying less than 4 hours at $200 yet we do not hear the old-timers complain. They do not live the same type of lifestyle as $2000+ range photographers.

It depends on lifestyle, whether you have a family, how much bills you need to pay, whether you have a car to maintain & where your ego is & where you place yourself at in the field. It also depends on what type of clients you rub shoulders with, even who you socialize with, and (sadly) the societal tier of your friends/family/social circle. It also depends on your equipment, skills, marketing and social networking abilities.

There is no right or wrong. There is $2.50 chicken rice & $20++ chicken rice at Meritus Mandarin just as there is $250 Bridal Shop AD photographers and $2000 photojournalistic wedding photographers. To put things into perspective, you must eat or you will die, but no photographer, sad but won't die.

 

[sjackal]

There are many tiers of photographers. There are many styles of photography. There are bridal shops paying less than 4 hours at $200 yet we do not hear the old-timers complain. They do not live the same type of lifestyle as $2000+ range photographers.

It depends on lifestyle, whether you have a family, how much bills you need to pay, whether you have a car to maintain & where your ego is & where you place yourself at in the field. It also depends on what type of clients you rub shoulders with, even who you socialize with, and (sadly) the societal tier of your friends/family/social circle. It also depends on your equipment, skills, marketing and social networking abilities.

There is no right or wrong. There is $2.50 chicken rice & $20++ chicken rice at Meritus Mandarin just as there is $250 Bridal Shop AD photographers and $2000 photojournalistic wedding photographers. To put things into perspective, you must eat or you will die, but no photographer, sad but won't die.

Bro, I think it depends on beliefs.

Do you believe in yourself? Do you believe you can improve? Do you want to improve? Do you believe you can break out of the current situation and make another milestone in your career?

This type of things, only the people themselves can help themselves, no one else can. Others can nudge them a bit, but if they believe they cannot - they cannot. That is the power of beliefs and it works both sides, positively or negatively.

 

[surrephoto]

Bro, I think it depends on beliefs.

Do you believe in yourself? Do you believe you can improve? Do you want to improve? Do you believe you can break out of the current situation and make another milestone in your career?

This type of things, only the people themselves can help themselves, no one else can. Others can nudge them a bit, but if they believe they cannot - they cannot. That is the power of beliefs and it works both sides, positively or negatively.

Beliefs certainly plays a part too. As photographers we should never stagnate, regardless rates or skills. I've a friend who simply used strategies he acquired while reading the book "The Secret", and worked his way up into a rather successful photographer for his age. He didn't have a formula or anything, he simply did it, no secret or anything, just a website, wpja, facebook, clubsnap thread & online ads. I do not advocate 100% belief in "The Secret", but it has some points that we can learn from. There are those with big plans & often procrastinate, set limits to themselves, underestimate their abilities, and never really see the light of success. However success is gauged only by oneself. I simply cannot find a reason to scorn or discourage those who charge S$250 a day wedding rates so long as they are happy. Perhaps it's his passion, or perhaps he feels he doesn't need to do much at that rate. In fact I remember someone here (can't remember who), mentioned a certainly workflow these old-timers have such that they can survive at this type of rates. Their turn around is very fast, and obviously they get hired more than occasionally due to their attractive rates. Some of these old-timers i met did start to get fed-up with life due to mid-life crisis etc and eventually quit shooting not because of the low rates.

And here comes the group who charge a lot and produce great art. There are getting what they deserve, and passion works hand-in-hand with income & business for them. Well doesn't mean if I charge sub-$100 per hour when the fella is charging $150 - $300 / hr I should be jealous and scorn them right? I often hear people say things like "nothing special what, just alot of bokeh, buay sharp one" or "if I have such lighting I also can do this lor" when they view portfolios of these photographers. If this is not sour grapes, then what?

Then there are those who charge a decent sum eg. $100 - $150 / hr for weddings (these numbers are just BALLPARK btw), and are not getting jobs sufficient jobs because of various reasons... eg. their style stagnated so not popular, their marketing strategy fails them, never use social media, never give out name cards, they are simply not good enough for their rate, their attitude & ego does not attract customers, they deliver sub par quality work, they are picky about customers & type of jobs when they have little value to do so. Some of these guys would go around proclaiming that the photography scene is collapsing, no more market, bad year, bad times etc. when they fail to analyze themselves first. Some of them have a day job and this is just part-time, so be honest for that case it doesn't matter so long they've got a handful of jobs a year right? These guys also often pick on those who charge lesser then them, saying they spoil market etc. There one that I met who even degraded himself to the extent of harassing newbies by e-mails, or inviting hatred against cheap newbies online. And there was even one guy who told me who would literally expose & punish those who charge less than $100 / Hr. What he meant by punish, I seriously don't want to know cos I charge less than $100 / hr. These guys can shoot quite well, but their unhappiness against so-called newbies or lowballers have caused themselves to degenerate to become deeply resentful people. I've even met a few who wanted to lobby for the institutionalization of professional photography, or a license to practice photography. For what? Protect themselves from the threat of budget photographers? This one is however a double-edged sword issue.

 

[catchlights]

when a photographer, get paid for an assignment, in the eye of clients/customers, this photographer is a pro, whether he is a newbie, part timer, season shooter or a full time photographer.
so long he get paid, he is a pro, that is how the clients/customers see it.

when the job is done, up to the expectation of clients/customers, clients/customers say, yes, Ok, that should be the way, that is what I paid for.
but if it is not, all the mother*@($^(*&@*)*@) will come out from the months of clients/customers, they start calling this photographer "UNPROFESSIONAL", a "Bogus Photographer", "Liar", "Cheater" whatever names you can or can not think of.

so do you get my point now?
clients/customers don't label photographers as "Newbie", "Part-timer", "Freelancer", "Professional", in their eyes, there is only Good Photographers and Bad Photographers.

Only we ourself label our photographers as "Newbie", "Part-timer", "Freelancer", "Professional" blar blar blar....




When you offer a service in exchange for money, you are in the industry,
whether you are making a living, supplement your income, making extra pocket money or funding your hobby,
that doesn't matter, since you collect money, whether $1 per hour or $1000 per hour.
YOU ARE IN THE INDUSTRY! WE ALL ARE THE INDUSTRY!!

So, can you say you don't need to respect the industry, don't need to take care the industry, don't need to give back to the industry?
How selfish if you have this thought of not caring about the industry.


technically speaking, we all are in a same ship, a very big ship, some are at the top, some are at the middle, some are at the bottom, we can afford to have some holes here and there, so long everyone try to patch it up to stop the leak and clear up the mess.
but if there are too many holes and nobody care to do anything about it, everyone is going down.

 

[Maykind]

I think we all should stop defending the photography business, let the market force takes its course. If there is ppl who wants to take this 200 dollars job, let it be. Why are guys be bothered by that? Why do you guys feel the need to regulate it?

At the end of the day, NONE OF YOU CAN STOP THE INVISIBLE HAND OF THE MARKET TO MAKE ITS WAY.

 

[Maykind]

So, can you say you don't need to respect the industry, don't need to take care the industry, don't need to give back to the industry?
How selfish if you have this thought of not caring about the industry.

You might care for the industry but the industry might not care for you, bear that in mind.

What I am saying is, no matter what you do for the industry, at the end of the day economic force is going to take it over, it is only the simple matter of decoding the supply and demand. There is no need of defending the industry