Ha, that's a good one. :bsmilie: But it most certainly illustrates what I am trying to say. I think this is pixel peeping to an extreme regardless of whether Canon acknowledges it or not. Perhaps this is another one of those viral marketing tactics. Sigh...
5D MK 2 Discussion: Black dots at high exposure
- Thread starter PictureFreak
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Ha, that's a good one. :bsmilie: But it most certainly illustrates what I am trying to say. I think this is pixel peeping to an extreme regardless of whether Canon acknowledges it or not. Perhaps this is another one of those viral marketing tactics. Sigh...
I wouldn't call it extreme pixel peeping when it can be viewed at 50%. Try downloading PictureFreak's excellent night shot (ISO800) here:-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luhaiwong/sets/72157610209464207/
and then view it at 100% or even 50%. This is the photo I was referring to:-
Here are the 100% crops:-
Can anyone still Not see the problem?
I am sure the black spots will not be visible in a 6X4 postcard-sized print but the main motivation of getting a high-MP FF is to print out large poster-sized images of scenery/portraits!
I would not just rely on fanboy posters (quoted in a post above) who are quick to dismiss the issue as "much ado about nothing" without doing the proper research. There are lots of possible defects with digital images and most can be easily handled by PP or firmware updates but there's no assurance yet that this black-spots problem is the same or that it can be solved through a firmware update. Here's a quote from a poster who seems to be quite knowledgeable about the subject:-
START QUOTE
"This looks very much like a problem with the automatic gain control (AGC) of the amplifier stage in the CMOS sensor. Basically the AGC cannot recover quickly enough after saturation and causes a few photosites after the high-to-low contrast area to be sampled with a lower magnitude than the actual one.
This is consistent with the problem being evident at high ISO, but also it is present at lower ISO although less apparent.
I had a quick look at the recently registered patents but couldn't find a Canon one, but for those who want to read more this patent is a good read:
http://www.wipo.int/... .../PCT-PAGES/2006/072006/06017042/06017042.pdf
Looks like Canon didn't test the design properly, or there is an issue introduced by the manufacturing process. Unless the hardware AGC has some sort of external tuning available from software, there's little to be done in a firmware update (unless Canon decides to "cheat" and filter the RAW in software), unfortunately."
END QUOTE
Read also this article for examples of defects:-
http://hannemyr.com/photo/defects.html
Earlier claims that it affects only very high ISO photos (ISO 800 can hardly be called high!) or that it is caused by the Raw converter have now been proven wrong.
Until Canon comes out with a statement on this, it would be wiser to hold on to your cash and not become a beta tester. Of course, Canon may just quietly fix the problem; I can't see how their engineers could have missed this. In which case, the fixed camera will be released quietly and the early buyers will be left holding the baby.
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OK. I see what you mean now.
Taken as a whole, I will say this is a rather situation limited problem. Of course, it's easy for me to say that since I have no interest in getting the camera. :bsmilie:
Rayrider
Member
Hi,
I just discovered a 'strange' situation.
Since it is such a beautiful night, decided to take a walk around the One Fullerton area with my wife to take some night shots with my 5DMk2 to see if I will have same black dots as mentioned.
Most of the shots were taken at f11, ISO800 and ISO3200.
On returning home just a while back, downloaded my pictures to my laptop and viewed them with the Canon's Digital Picture Professional software (usually I will use LR2, unfortunately the update to read the new RAW file is not available yet, and DPP is actually a pain to use...) On double clicking to view one of the picture (similar in composition to the night shot use to show the dots), the black dots were there. Disappointed, double clicked again to bring it to fit the window, chose another spot and enlarged it again to 100%, the dots were still there...however, after a delay of 3 - 5 seconds, the monitor seem to 're-align' or 're-focus' itself and the black dots were gone!
The above applies to all my pictures. Maybe you can try see if it is the same for you.
If so, these black dots could just be a software/hardware (computer) problem.
So far, I am extremely pleased with the camera.
Cheers!
I just discovered a 'strange' situation.
Since it is such a beautiful night, decided to take a walk around the One Fullerton area with my wife to take some night shots with my 5DMk2 to see if I will have same black dots as mentioned.
Most of the shots were taken at f11, ISO800 and ISO3200.
On returning home just a while back, downloaded my pictures to my laptop and viewed them with the Canon's Digital Picture Professional software (usually I will use LR2, unfortunately the update to read the new RAW file is not available yet, and DPP is actually a pain to use...) On double clicking to view one of the picture (similar in composition to the night shot use to show the dots), the black dots were there. Disappointed, double clicked again to bring it to fit the window, chose another spot and enlarged it again to 100%, the dots were still there...however, after a delay of 3 - 5 seconds, the monitor seem to 're-align' or 're-focus' itself and the black dots were gone!
The above applies to all my pictures. Maybe you can try see if it is the same for you.
If so, these black dots could just be a software/hardware (computer) problem.
So far, I am extremely pleased with the camera.
Cheers!
I am wondering if an easier way to test for the black spots is to just take a shot of a few lighted candles in a dark environment. If you could try at different ISOs and let us know the outcome, that would be great - thanks.
That's weird. Didn't Canon just lay off 1000 workers in Japan, as reported here? :bsmilie: :bsmilie:
BTW, this black dot issue is certainly not new and has been there since the good old 1D2N days: see here. And Canon Japan did not know what to do with the issue then. Doubt they'll know what to do now.
There are 2 options for buyers: (i) harp on the issue as if staring at photos of bright lights is all you do (ii) refrain from getting Canon (especially after their long recent history of fiasco) and stop bit**ing about it. :bsmilie:
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Kit
Senior Member
oh man.... disaster.. the black area after the spot light is so visible..
reminder again... dun rush to buy any new released product..
reminder again... don't look at one pixel at a time...
Kit
Senior Member
I wouldn't call it extreme pixel peeping when it can be viewed at 50%. Try downloading PictureFreak's excellent night shot (ISO800) here:-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luhaiwong/sets/72157610209464207/
and then view it at 100% or even 50%. This is the photo I was referring to:-
Here are the 100% crops:-
Can anyone still Not see the problem?
I am sure the black spots will not be visible in a 6X4 postcard-sized print but the main motivation of getting a high-MP FF is to print out large poster-sized images of scenery/portraits!
I would not just rely on fanboy posters (quoted in a post above) who are quick to dismiss the issue as "much ado about nothing" without doing the proper research. There are lots of possible defects with digital images and most can be easily handled by PP or firmware updates but there's no assurance yet that this black-spots problem is the same or that it can be solved through a firmware update. Here's a quote from a poster who seems to be quite knowledgeable about the subject:-
START QUOTE
"This looks very much like a problem with the automatic gain control (AGC) of the amplifier stage in the CMOS sensor. Basically the AGC cannot recover quickly enough after saturation and causes a few photosites after the high-to-low contrast area to be sampled with a lower magnitude than the actual one.
This is consistent with the problem being evident at high ISO, but also it is present at lower ISO although less apparent.
I had a quick look at the recently registered patents but couldn't find a Canon one, but for those who want to read more this patent is a good read:
http://www.wipo.int/... .../PCT-PAGES/2006/072006/06017042/06017042.pdf
Looks like Canon didn't test the design properly, or there is an issue introduced by the manufacturing process. Unless the hardware AGC has some sort of external tuning available from software, there's little to be done in a firmware update (unless Canon decides to "cheat" and filter the RAW in software), unfortunately."
END QUOTE
Read also this article for examples of defects:-
http://hannemyr.com/photo/defects.html
Earlier claims that it affects only very high ISO photos (ISO 800 can hardly be called high!) or that it is caused by the Raw converter have now been proven wrong.
Until Canon comes out with a statement on this, it would be wiser to hold on to your cash and not become a beta tester. Of course, Canon may just quietly fix the problem; I can't see how their engineers could have missed this. In which case, the fixed camera will be released quietly and the early buyers will be left holding the baby.
To be honest, I'd be more concerned about the tilting vertical lines... those flaws made by the photographer are visible on prints.
Kit
Senior Member
Apparently, some does that and are more worried about it than anything else.....
Rayrider
Member
Agreed. I was never too concerned with the so called problem. Just wanted to share what I have discovered. Personally, I think the 5D2 is a brilliant body. It presented me with minimal issues when using AWB when compared to 40D, it shoots with pin-point sharpness even with my 16-35 that I have always feel the images were generally 'soft' on my previous 40D body. The FF sensor has also given me true perspective for composition and allow me to fully utilize the lenses that I have. I am enjoying every moment of using it!
phoakm
Senior Member
You indeed fall in love with the camera. :bsmilie:
I believe the problem is due to the interpolation between the neighbouring pixels. The system (regradless of camera or process system), was trying to interpolate the pixels between different zone. It take huge resolution power to determine the pixels boundary, especially to process and retain the details of the image.
The system maybe thinking some of the pixels in the dark background belongs to the pixels in the bright spot. And capture as it is.
I am not really familiar how it is done as I have limited knowledge. This is my guessing theory.
Read from DPReview, someone came out with a temporary solution
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=30276248&page=1
however, results maybe due to differing test methods.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&thread=30276248&page=1
however, results maybe due to differing test methods.
digital601
New Member
in-camera processing might be the cause.
Check this dpreview thread.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=30276248
Check this dpreview thread.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=30276248
if u say that, that means u don't need the 21meg resolution.
might as well get a 6meg camera.
PS: I don't need 21meg resolution too....
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For the pixel peepers out there, seems that there's a simple solution. Turn OFF highlight tone priority (lighting optimizer and noise reduction too, but I believe the latter two only affect jpeg). It's been shown to work. Hopefully, the fix is as simple as that. Looks like it's a silly in-camera thing... much ado about nothing then.
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Kit
Senior Member
If your purpose of buying a hi-res camera is to scrutinise the pixel, you don't need it either.
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