See the video in the link.
18th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre
- Thread starter hkdigit
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See the video in the link.
photographique
Senior Member
I see...hmm...strange...where's the plastic bag in his right hand in the photo?
Though I do not agree completely with your thoughts, especially the above one, I have to say your digital works are quite amazing.
I love the Escher-esque works, him being one of my favourite artists. The other is the cat thrower...
Sorry for the OT.
zoossh
Senior Member
this is not some mysterious murder or assasination, but a massacre that cannot be kept in the secret, with hunting of dissendents over months to years. i think we all know it, as much as we know of the holocaust or the nanking massacre. neutral can mean different things. it can mean being indifferent, apathic and unconcerned. it can also mean fair, rational and not biased. it can mean being in between or being outside. so i guess we are picking different definition, for example by the second definition, not being neutral require the HK democratic activists to make an unfair/unreasonable request or demand through such anniversary.
i'm not sure what you mean by other motives. it has been dodgy. maybe you can just spell it out what is your postulation and your impression, that's clearer. becos we can't see what you mean by "obvious", or that we can't say that it is obviously right.
there is so far probably only 3 facts concluded in this thread, the rest probably need some substantiation or are mere beliefs, opinions and impressions.
1. political reformations (not overthrowing) are openly being requested (you can call it suggestion or demand up to the interpretation) by the students.
2. a massacre did happened involving an military order, followed by a crackdown.
3. an anniversary is indeed conducted in HK as shown in the pictures.
anyway, since this is in reportage, i guess all viewers are fairly interested in the event and we honoured the value of culture, history and current affairs, hence we are here. you can choose to be unconcerned, you can feel funny, but making judgement that other people cannot be concerned is probably a little unnecessary.
The people at the 6.4 18th anniversary in HK have my highest respect, becos after 18 long years, they didn't forget what happened in that dark night. They don't have 'short memory' as some had predicted back in 1989.
My feeling towards 6.4 was quite mixed. On the one hand, i support the students' or the demostrators cause, which is for anti-corruption, clean government. On the other hand, i was also quite lost, the entire society had gone into some kind of anarchy in 1989, nobody knew what would happen next. Some action should be taken to put the country back in order.
What actually happened in Tianmen square may remain as a mystery forever, as eye-witnesses had drastically different accounts of the event. What I know for sure are:
a) Before 6.4, the government agencies/"work units" etc had all been informed that something may happen on 6.4. People had been advised not to go out that night.
b) Bullets were fired, which left marks on the walls of many buildings. Whether the army actually opened fire WITHIN the Tianmen square boundary, then that is yet to be determined.
No matter whether 6.4 is right or wrong, what we know is innocent lives were lost. The situation should had been handled in a better way without sacrifying human lives, which is possible.
As to the opinion that 6.4 is non of HK people's business. Some politicians would love to hear that. And it is a point I strongly disagree with.
My feeling towards 6.4 was quite mixed. On the one hand, i support the students' or the demostrators cause, which is for anti-corruption, clean government. On the other hand, i was also quite lost, the entire society had gone into some kind of anarchy in 1989, nobody knew what would happen next. Some action should be taken to put the country back in order.
What actually happened in Tianmen square may remain as a mystery forever, as eye-witnesses had drastically different accounts of the event. What I know for sure are:
a) Before 6.4, the government agencies/"work units" etc had all been informed that something may happen on 6.4. People had been advised not to go out that night.
b) Bullets were fired, which left marks on the walls of many buildings. Whether the army actually opened fire WITHIN the Tianmen square boundary, then that is yet to be determined.
No matter whether 6.4 is right or wrong, what we know is innocent lives were lost. The situation should had been handled in a better way without sacrifying human lives, which is possible.
As to the opinion that 6.4 is non of HK people's business. Some politicians would love to hear that. And it is a point I strongly disagree with.
ahbian
Senior Member
Hmm. Interesting views you have. Why do you think they want to "show defiance"?
zoossh
Senior Member
and something very close to us. the bombings in bali, the philippines and southern thailand. the suppression of east timorese independence by pro-unions.
photographique
Senior Member
Though I do not agree completely with your thoughts, especially the above one, I have to say your digital works are quite amazing.
I love the Escher-esque works, him being one of my favourite artists. The other is the cat thrower...
Sorry for the OT.
:sweatsm: ...err...thanks.
However, Escher-esque, and cat-thower are...?
What I wrote was that if it's an anniversary it has to be neutral (what ever redefinition...:sweat: ), and they have supportive slogan regarding 6.4 there the whole thing is for 6.4, so it's quite obivous...
It's not that people 'can not' be concerned, what I said was that it is not really their business. Everyone has the right.
If they want to remember those who died fine...but if they want to reclaim justice or whatever don't do such stupid so-called 'anniversary' and get all naive people's sympathy. They should carry another 6.4 or whatever to do the students justice. This kind of impure motive political events under a very 'justified' name makes me feel that it's stupid and coward like.
If you still don't understand, I can put in other words. Anniversary is anniversary, but clearly the event is not entirely neutral, it's just a playing with fire event under the name 'anniversary' to show defiance, and perhaps unite some people.
The motive I said already what...to show the mainland authority defiance, and that HK is democratic lo...since when I was dodging.
:think:
Well, I think those who gave the command to kill or whatever were those being pressurized, so it couldn't be avoided, from the very beginning the whole incident is doomed to be a bloody event, which I reckon might be already known to some people who provoked it.
It's just what they always want to do.
zoossh
Senior Member
i didn't not understand, i disagree.
the whole thing is tied in to the same incident with the same movement behind. they are apparently related and inseparable and understandably so, not as said as "impure motive". these people died for a cause (which apparently from the first place, you already disagree with their intention and action, which could be the very reason for the subsequent reasonings). in this event, both their cause and sacrifice are commemorated, and with such, a condemnation of the actions taken (while there are many parts of the world do so, but not everyone would or have do so, including many who are pressurised). if you actually know the correct meaning of the chinese word "ping fan", it is not overthrowing. it is literally and actually meaning correcting untruths and giving necessary credits - another common usage is used in amendment to a wrongful judiciary sentence, i.e. rehabilitation.
the very reason why it occurs in HK and not elsewhere is becos democracy is brought up in a more mature way than other locations, comparable to korea. a bad example of abused democracy would be actually taiwan. there is a need for the HK people to protect their legislation and idealogical difference dictates that there is no way these two places can coexist in a shared system, probably not even 50 years later. the link occurs because the hongkongers and the student reformist shared similar ideology and the hongkongers empathise with the efforts/sacrifices made. the link also occurs here with various other nationalities, creed and races, who shared similar ideology and empathise with that, with regards to your comment of "none of their/our business". the hongkongers knows well that they have to raise their stance early before it is too late next time, for they themselves may become the next victim of such treatment. once it is established to a regime that violent crackdown is repeatedly successful without objection, it will get bolder and bolder.
there is certainly an element of voicing of objection. you described it in an enslavering term of "defiant". most of us would not used that word though, becos it implies a meaning of irrationality and unsupposed insurbodination - something that they should follow and they did not, with emphasis on the word "should". if there is an accepted law of order that is breached, such as charging into a government working area, or burning down of private properties, feel free then to use the word "defiant".
by the way, in a friendly discussion, personal sentiments and disparaging calls of "stupid" should not be included, unless there is a real case of stupidity in common sense, for example in a peaceful protest, if someone knock his head against the wall in front of the reporter's video and later claimed to be hurt by the policemen - that is stupid. do take note that such phrases can be inflammatory especially when there is a proponent and opponent rather than 2 third parties. when you say something is obvious, it should not be something that is quite limited to your own interpretation that is hardly agreed elsewhere.
there are however certain things i do agree with you. it is doomed to be a bloody event from the very nature the state is started in 1949 and the events that followed in the next few decades. and the students are naive to believe that peaceful demonstrations would be met with an attempt of reply, discussion or negotiation. some of the leaders that fled the country are already disillusioned in the fate of their country's humanitarian progress, that they would rather invest their energy in contributing to the socio-economical progress of their current residing countries.
hkdigit, good effort for that. the 1st 3 takes are especially good. hope to see more of this kind of coverage.
the whole thing is tied in to the same incident with the same movement behind. they are apparently related and inseparable and understandably so, not as said as "impure motive". these people died for a cause (which apparently from the first place, you already disagree with their intention and action, which could be the very reason for the subsequent reasonings). in this event, both their cause and sacrifice are commemorated, and with such, a condemnation of the actions taken (while there are many parts of the world do so, but not everyone would or have do so, including many who are pressurised). if you actually know the correct meaning of the chinese word "ping fan", it is not overthrowing. it is literally and actually meaning correcting untruths and giving necessary credits - another common usage is used in amendment to a wrongful judiciary sentence, i.e. rehabilitation.
the very reason why it occurs in HK and not elsewhere is becos democracy is brought up in a more mature way than other locations, comparable to korea. a bad example of abused democracy would be actually taiwan. there is a need for the HK people to protect their legislation and idealogical difference dictates that there is no way these two places can coexist in a shared system, probably not even 50 years later. the link occurs because the hongkongers and the student reformist shared similar ideology and the hongkongers empathise with the efforts/sacrifices made. the link also occurs here with various other nationalities, creed and races, who shared similar ideology and empathise with that, with regards to your comment of "none of their/our business". the hongkongers knows well that they have to raise their stance early before it is too late next time, for they themselves may become the next victim of such treatment. once it is established to a regime that violent crackdown is repeatedly successful without objection, it will get bolder and bolder.
there is certainly an element of voicing of objection. you described it in an enslavering term of "defiant". most of us would not used that word though, becos it implies a meaning of irrationality and unsupposed insurbodination - something that they should follow and they did not, with emphasis on the word "should". if there is an accepted law of order that is breached, such as charging into a government working area, or burning down of private properties, feel free then to use the word "defiant".
by the way, in a friendly discussion, personal sentiments and disparaging calls of "stupid" should not be included, unless there is a real case of stupidity in common sense, for example in a peaceful protest, if someone knock his head against the wall in front of the reporter's video and later claimed to be hurt by the policemen - that is stupid. do take note that such phrases can be inflammatory especially when there is a proponent and opponent rather than 2 third parties. when you say something is obvious, it should not be something that is quite limited to your own interpretation that is hardly agreed elsewhere.
there are however certain things i do agree with you. it is doomed to be a bloody event from the very nature the state is started in 1949 and the events that followed in the next few decades. and the students are naive to believe that peaceful demonstrations would be met with an attempt of reply, discussion or negotiation. some of the leaders that fled the country are already disillusioned in the fate of their country's humanitarian progress, that they would rather invest their energy in contributing to the socio-economical progress of their current residing countries.
hkdigit, good effort for that. the 1st 3 takes are especially good. hope to see more of this kind of coverage.
wrx_sti_22b
Senior Member
Is that why (china) film makers are angry with what happened then & so they made movies with gays & lesbian themes... i meant, simply to say homosexual themes against this incident's background & challenge the censorship of china... is it so? Just to be defiance?
FYI, HK is part of China since 1997 (were you born yet?)
Hence, whatever happened to China in the past, present or future, it's HK's business; they can voice their opinion, you understand?
I can't believe what I'm reading here, Scary!
They are doing a peaceful commemoration but someone call them coward & suggest they should stage another 6.4 to do the students justice. Just remember don't say that in China.
No I don't support 6.4. The truth will never be revealed, hence I'm not supporting either sides. But I let people have the freedom to voice their opinion provided it's logical, legal and no blood is shed. Just as you can call them stupid, coward, naive, impure, they also have a right to hold the event. It's like a photographer posting photos from a fashion event, and someone pops in and say "Hey, the organizers have an impure motive!!"; "How would you know this new fashion style is better than the old fashion style that they wish to replace?"; "Beware, they are getting all the naive people to buy their new fashion!!"
If anyone don't like a certain fashion, don't click on it. Peace~!
It's hard to forget and forgive on the actions that was done by the authorities. And it shouldn't be denied of what had happen.
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thinkvision
Senior Member
dont touch politics, it is not only the most dangerous thing in the world, also the dirty one,,,both sides...no B and W, just grey...human beings, hah, how to say, we are all the same, sinner...just as the Bibles say...
Hats off to the people of Hong Kong, still keeping the candle lit for those who died for democracy 18 years ago.
Hats off to those who participated in the remembrance this year and all the other years, for having the courage to do so under the thumb of Beijing and so close to the PLA HQ in Hong Kong.
Without you, those who gave up their lives 18 years ago, those who saw thair freedom abruptly ended during the 18 years of crack down, would have sacrificed in vain.
Hats off to those who participated in the remembrance this year and all the other years, for having the courage to do so under the thumb of Beijing and so close to the PLA HQ in Hong Kong.
Without you, those who gave up their lives 18 years ago, those who saw thair freedom abruptly ended during the 18 years of crack down, would have sacrificed in vain.
Jeanette.z
New Member
I still thought the demonstration is how HK people showing their resentment to the Beijing authorities. Most of the HK people I met never admit HK is part of China and always trying to shake off the control from the North, whether it's 6.4 or Fa Lun Gong.
And 6.4 itself is a historical tragedy, for students. Students are always the sacrifice for politics, always being take advantaged of. Because they are in that 'know it but still don't quite getting it' phase, when combined with the anger and the Martyr-attitude could be quite a terrific weapon at all times.
And I agree very much with azul123 that history is written by the victorious ones (though they might be scumbags at one time).
Regarding that 'none-of-my-business' arguement. What good could that demonstration do? Just like the 6.4 itself. Students were trying to make a stop to the corruption. Look at how corrupted China is now. There are somethings that can't be stopped. Either you really use your brain and make some smart changes or shut up and try to keep your own body intact.
And 6.4 itself is a historical tragedy, for students. Students are always the sacrifice for politics, always being take advantaged of. Because they are in that 'know it but still don't quite getting it' phase, when combined with the anger and the Martyr-attitude could be quite a terrific weapon at all times.
And I agree very much with azul123 that history is written by the victorious ones (though they might be scumbags at one time).
Regarding that 'none-of-my-business' arguement. What good could that demonstration do? Just like the 6.4 itself. Students were trying to make a stop to the corruption. Look at how corrupted China is now. There are somethings that can't be stopped. Either you really use your brain and make some smart changes or shut up and try to keep your own body intact.
yes politics can be dangerous and it is often dirty but in the end our lifes are ruled by politics. be it the small ones in the office or at home or the bigger ones in the world.
Politics keep the world moving... without things get stuck. Also dont complain if things dont run the way you like if you dont get involved in politics or in other words if you dont voice out! And lets face it, the Bible is full of politics....
Why do we have Anniversaries?
Because we think something great happened that ought to be remembered. The thing great may be something joyful, the birth of a child, or something terrible, Tianmen, in any way by the pure fact that one consideres an event great one is not neutral towards the event. If one is neutral one would not celebrate / comemorate. So an anniversary is not neutral, it is a statement of approval or disapproval.
Because we think something great happened that ought to be remembered. The thing great may be something joyful, the birth of a child, or something terrible, Tianmen, in any way by the pure fact that one consideres an event great one is not neutral towards the event. If one is neutral one would not celebrate / comemorate. So an anniversary is not neutral, it is a statement of approval or disapproval.
Wise words.
Of course it's resentment. Who shouldn't resent a government who sent tanks into a throng of students?
What good could a demonstration do? A lot. It reminds us and the world what have happenned. We must remember these tragic events, and learn from them. But if we cannot even remember them, we will not learn from our mistakes.
Your last sentance is the worse of all. If everyone is like that, shut up and only worry about themselves, the world will probably be a worse place.
The fall of the Soviet Union started with the trade unionist's demand for democracy in Poland. Many landed in jail, and too many died in the course, but it served as the catalyst for massive changes in Europe. So, should Lech Walesa have walked away because the threat on his well being for organising the workers and leading the Solidarity movement?
Dr. Martin Luther King gave his life for civil rights for the African American in the US. If he had shut up to keep his body intact, well, histroy wil be very different.
Nelson Mandela spent most of 20 years in jail and was the lightning rod for over throwing apartheid in South Africa. Are you saying he should have watch out for his body and gave up his sgtruggle for freedom?
How about Aung San Suu Kyi? As we speak, she is still under house arrest in Burma becuase for her pro-democracy and civil rights stand for the people of Burma. Is the future of the people of Burma her business?
A lot of things in this world is really not our business, becasue they do not impact us directly. We can always walk away to protect our skin. Many do jsut that. But, very fortunate for man kind, a few did not, and they ultimately made a difference.
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