Videographers' Co-operative in S'pore

[GhostSG]

Hey guys & gals,

I am starting a co-operative/ association (The ProCrew Group) for videographers in S'pore. My main aim is to protect the copyrights and biz price in S'pore for all professionals & freelance videographers. My idea is - to rather have friendly competition whilst maintaining S'pore's mkt rate than to slash price and kill the market. The group will also share and learn from one another to upgrade and maintain our professional standards and services.

My personal experience is that there are some selfish peeps out there who wouldn't share. So far I'd seen that our video group in CS do pass contacts around if they can't handle the volume which is good. Why dun we come together?

We need all the experts/ experienced peeps in CS to help start this group. I am trying to contact CASE to get some service guidelines and affiliation etc. Anyone interested?

http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?p=2873956#post2873956

Clifton
www.heevproduction.com

 

[DXNMedia]

Perhaps u and Pierce can work together as we did start to discuss about the possibility of such groups.

I can try to rope in AIPRO's committe to support the group as an affiliate society if things do work out.

 

[glennyong]

well.. selfish peeps are common. but well.. not all are ready to share their knowledge because you are new to the industry.

or lets put it this way. will u share your personal information with a stranger ?

Procrew or not. well... i foresee alot of amatuers or wanna-bes joining this group. and well.. quality control is a must if you want to use the word "Pro" in your logo or whatsoever.

 

[GhostSG]

Inputs noted, thanks for the advice Glenn, definitely need strict entry QC. That's why i think we need the most qualified, experienced & experts like Dixon & Pierce who have the vast knowledge in videography to spearhead it. Its just an idea for me as I am relatively new in the industry.

Well as for name - can use any name in fact but at least we have to start somewhere. Like in photography they have orgs like Spore Photographic Society, Professional Photographers Association of S'pore etc.

As for sharing of info - you are right too. Perhaps maybe just come together to show case their work(voluntarily) if they want for others give input like our show case forum section something like that but thats not important. Important issues such as copyright,fees charged and others that are important to the survival/earnings of professional videographers in Singapore.

For me, the question is why would one wants to earn less, when together we can earn more?
Currently, this is not the case. Many just want to get that project and thus provide impossible price or even at a lost. Of course as we know, this is call 'market force'(I call it the bubble tea syndrome). Short term gain and months down the road, all just slash the price further, compromising the quality. Most just vanished down the road. Our industry can be repeating that history if we are not united and allow market pressure to shred us into pieces.

 

[Faiz]

I agree wif clifton it should be strictly qc before entering the society but how bout big shot cameraman? i mean those top notch dp and film camera operators?

 

[GhostSG]

I agree wif clifton it should be strictly qc before entering the society but how bout big shot cameraman? i mean those top notch dp and film camera operators?

Well since this is a society/ association of sort to help maintain s'pore professional videographers' biz i.e. pricing, service standards & copyright etc. The big shots or the most qualified/ senior/ experienced cinematographers(DOPs), producers, directors & experts etc should be the most qualified/ valued peeps to be in such associations/ society - either as commitee members or advisors will help the industry. These experts will be able to help the society/ association weed out those "Wana-Bes" and "wayang look-see" jokers. One good example/ model for us to imitate is Magnum Photo (A U.S. stock photo agency). Of course, a society/ association still got to have AGMs/ voting for committee members and the usual crap but someone have to start somewhere....

Frankly speaking, even mediacorp artistes or ex-SBC/TCS artistes are in the S'pore Artistes' Association - they mediate dispute, help maintain pricings,performance standards for 7th mth "Gor Tai" and other performing art business etc - what more for videographers??? Currently, Chen JianBin is the vice chairman of SAA. Look at Panasonic Film fest - every year local Directors like Kelvin Thong spent their time to teach and share for free to inspire new film-makers for free and never hold back.

Of course, individual companies can't share their own "personal trade secrets" - but as a big group; we singaporean will learn better as a group to have a S'pore standard esp with experts' sharing etc either paid or free courses - watever. Those companies/ individuals who wana "band" together cos they have same "frequency" is up to them but they still can be members as a company or whatsoever. When can Singaporean put away their ego & pride to band together and learn from Asia's best - HK film industry and India's Boliwood???!!! The only peeps making it in S'pore(going global) now is e.g. Mediacorp Raintree etc - pls lor - look at who/ wat org has a stack and share in them??? We as private citizens, artists and entrepreneurs - if we dun come out and fight for our opportunities and survival dun expect the Govt to spoon feed us lor!!! Even blue-collar workers got various Workers' Union.....

Starting a society/ association (in fact anything/ biz) is never easy. QC for the really serious professional/ semi-pro members is a must. But look at it in another light - Our forefathers have set many platforms for us - this generation. Now we got Chinese Traders Association, CDAC, MUIS, MDA, IDA, MITA, CASE etc to support us laterally.

Sorry if my expressions sound harsh or offensive but its my opinion/ thoughts. Pls forgive me.:lovegrin:

 

[sundazz]

agree many do not willing to share..

but personally i think sharing is no big issue.. esp in this industry. we share technical knowledge, productions aspect and skills. but interms of creativity it still depands on individual..

and i believe when we share something, we will actually learn something in return..

well, let those willing to share be together and all can improve together..
those not willing to share will be stagnant at their knowledge.



As for QC.. where is the bench mark? who determine the bench mark?
not forgetting we must not just base on the quality of work, but also the attitude.

union! union! union! :thumbsup:

 

[pierceteo]

Hi All,

GhostSG sorry hijacking your thread...

I propose let's all meet again...

Monday good for you guys?

Thanx
Pierce

 

[jhansolo]

Competition in this industry is very keen, but it is the people that made it cruel. As for QC, I don't think it is a great idea ... let people come what does the union / group stand to loose. When you turn people away ... that can potentially turn ugly. I'm very interested, but this month bad for me.

 

[Hobbes00]

Sorry but afew questions to think about..


- Does this mean qualifying into this Society will not be easy as it requires strong QC?

- Thus, will this discourage students to pick up a videocam and start looking for gigs to tryout?

- Why would DOPs and more renowned producers in the line want to be part of this Society?

- Will the clients be able to see the differences between videographers who are members and non-members?


The whole talk about QC, pricing, sharing and stuff sounds very much like a biz meeting held in a medium-big sized production company.

To be really honest, even if this society is up and running there will be a bunch of people who will charge low, and still please the client.
So if you run out of biz one day, will YOU, be desperate and charge lower than what the standard pricing?


Every year there will be a bunch of fresh grads who will join this industry.
I feel whats really important is NOT quality-control. It is quality-education.. go start a forum with GOOD moderators and managers like DVXuser and make it the ONE video-production forum in singapore. This way the video/film industry will benefit.

Don't get me wrong with what I just wrote.
I'm for the industry.. but just want to bring this up in another perspective
Thats what I think.

 

[DXNMedia]

All the concerns are very very valid and there's no way of stopping of others who have the mentality of undercutting just to get business.

There must be a level of standard in the society, but I guess we need to have different levels of membership classes. Maybe 'Pro' member & 'hobbyist' member & 'student' member classifications.

When I was a member of AES & SMPTE, they do have similar membership classifications too.
Most of the members are true professionals in the industry and they do conduct 'sharing' of experience in a very professional way by presenting their 'white-papers' and technical papers. To join the societies, one would need to have references or recommendations from reputatable companies/schools or fellow members.

My experience with 'Singapore Final Pro User Group' forum that my friends and I had setup a few years back have been a great example for me to look at & study the possible responses. Joining my little group have to go thru the boards' recommendations & approval, and the basic criteria to join have been done via recommendations by fellow editors.....the other basic criteria is to have been engaged in some work in post production for TV, but usually we trust our member's recommedations because all of us only wanted the group to be specialised group..

Though the group is run off informally via yahoo groups, responses & attitude amongst members have been extremely great so far, and the group forms a very closely knit community for professional video editors in Singapore.

A good start I must say, and the lesson learnt from my experience is that there MUST be a strict level of accepting membership....otherwise the society will be nothing more than a forum where every other guys not involved in the industry can just make their 2cents worth of comments.

I would therefore propose,
1) Referals by existing members
2) Credentials in past work
3) Registered Companies
4) MOE approved Media schools for student members.

to be the basic criteria for membership joining.
Of course to start with, the pioneering board members would already be known in the industry, and themselves, they'd ave plenty of contacts to make this society a successful one.

As for newbies getting in, I would think that if they are capable enough to work their way up into the industry, they'd definitely be well worth a mention by current members who are already in the industry, who would in turn, be asked if they want to join the members.

This type of membership selection applies to American Cinematographer Society, and editor's society also. Cam assistants work their way up to be DPs, if the DPs they work with think that they are capable enough, they would recommend them to join the society too.....

:thumbsup:

 

[DXNMedia]

Also, forgot to mention, this will also help the society filter out those who think they got money and just becoz they can afford a Z1 or HVX200 for their use, and start calling themselves Professional DPs or camera operators.

If they are truely capable, I'm sure they'd be worth some mentioning in our very small industry.

 

[ilovehouse]

Also, forgot to mention, this will also help the society filter out those who think they got money and just becoz they can afford a Z1 or HVX200 for their use, and start calling themselves Professional DPs or camera operators.

If they are truely capable, I'm sure they'd be worth some mentioning in our very small industry.

Hi all

Many years back, there was a attempt or talk amongst the freelance crew (grips, gaffers, etc) to try to setup a union of sorts.

Sadly, none materialised. After 43 TVCs , a few high profile corporate videos and 1 MV, I still dont dare to say i'm a professional producer. Cos learning is life long.

I applaud everyone's effort to try to set it up, but seriously, this takes a tremendous amount of effort and alot of time from everyone who has a heart and willing to give this a shot.

I for one, will be glad to sit in and listen to see if there's any way to assist and hopefully, we can all bring our standards up to another different level.

Just my 2 cents worth!

 

[pierceteo]

Hi,

Appriecate all this talk...let's get into action. Nothing will come out of posting's in forum.

Let's meetup and put it in action.

So Monday how?

Pierce

 

[DXNMedia]

Hi all

Many years back, there was a attempt or talk amongst the freelance crew (grips, gaffers, etc) to try to setup a union of sorts.

Sadly, none materialised. After 43 TVCs , a few high profile corporate videos and 1 MV, I still dont dare to say i'm a professional producer. Cos learning is life long.

I applaud everyone's effort to try to set it up, but seriously, this takes a tremendous amount of effort and alot of time from everyone who has a heart and willing to give this a shot.

I for one, will be glad to sit in and listen to see if there's any way to assist and hopefully, we can all bring our standards up to another different level.

Just my 2 cents worth!

Definitely agree that it will not be easy...that's why my friend Tony did set something up for professional producers, and I did something informal with SGFCP groups which served its purpose. :thumbsup:

Now in order to make this group work, we really need to thrash out some issues and keep the comments coming in.....above all, we need support from the industry regulars.

Pierce, as of now, I am still available on monday for the meet, but if any biz comes up on my side, I'll let u know. :thumbsup:

 

[mmeeiii]

Hi,

Appriecate all this talk...let's get into action. Nothing will come out of posting's in forum.

Let's meetup and put it in action.

So Monday how?

Pierce

Great Job in organising!