[RF Technique] Question on Re-composing after metering

[leafster]

Hi all,

I have had my first kick into rangefinder using M9P with 50mm Summilux ASPH. I spent several years with dslr and just in the transition into using rangefinder. I have question on focus point when re-compose. Hopefully can get some tips from experts here.

Decided to rephrase after re-read as my initial posting causes mix-up. Apology for the wrong thread title. I do have exposure questions but will run some tests again before I ask around.
The focus is done through superimposed imaging method at the center. So I have to reframe to the subject I want in focus (assume placing subject in a third of frame). I move the focusing square to the object that should be in focus, make the images lay on top of each other, then recompose to have what I want in the frame. I tends to get out-of-focus image on my subject. How much to turn the focus to get the actual desired focus?

I will test out again at other f-stop as one of the members point out wide open focusing is challenging. Many thanks.
Would be great if can join RF outing to learn more.

Happy shooting!

 

[Benji77]

I'm a little confused as to what you want. Are you saying the Exposure is wrong, OR the Focus Point is wrong?

 

[magicianhisoka]

If you're talking about focusing distance, the focus might be off after recomposition because it wasn't in the effective DOF area. Can be mitigated by using a smaller aperture. Recomposing wide open can be challenging.

 

[leafster]

I'm a little confused as to what you want. Are you saying the Exposure is wrong, OR the Focus Point is wrong?

Focus point. Yea is a bit mix-up after I read it again, my bad.

 

[leafster]

If you're talking about focusing distance, the focus might be off after recomposition because it wasn't in the effective DOF area. Can be mitigated by using a smaller aperture. Recomposing wide open can be challenging.

Noted, will stop-down one by one to test it out again. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Benji77]

The other factor is that you could have moved 'back and forth', loosing the depth. What is called front/back focus, which is the same as in DSLR.

 

[Cactus jACK]

not an expert, but I'll share some thoughts...

you have a couple of questions, i) regarding exposure, and ii) regarding focus when reframing.

but issues brought up are inherent in using slrs as well. only thing about rf is that you're typically limited to centre weighted metering and centre focusing point, where some slrs allow more of a variety - matrix metering, spot metering, and a whole matrix of focusing points.

exposure - try using ae-lock or meter at your subject before reframing. this will give you the best chance for your subject to be properly exposed. if you take your reading after you reframe, the camera will take the centre weighted reading from the current view... where your subject, being in the corning, may not be properly exposed (having a smaller weight in the metering).

focus - this is to do with the subtle shift in your focal plan brought about by shifting the orientation of your camera. the thinner your depth of field (dof), the more drastic the results. of course, many things can affect this, focal length, aperture, subject distance, angle shift in reframing, etc. but this is a common technique, and results should not be drastically off.

hope this helps.

 

[New2digital]

Hi all,
Decided to rephrase after re-read as my initial posting causes mix-up. I do have exposure questions but will run some tests again before I ask around.
The focus is done through superimposed imaging method at the center. For subject is in a corner, I focus first (assume wide aperture), then re-compose. And I get out-of-focus image on my subject. How can I do it right?

I will test out again at other f-stop as one of the members point out wide open focusing is challenging. Many thanks.
Would be great if can join RF outing to learn more.

Happy shooting!

The M9 being a manual focusing camera, once you had focus on a subject, assuming your subject distance is constant, no matter how you re-compose, so long as your distance to the subject remain constant, the subject will remain in focus. It is the physical property of the camera/lens. Panning the camera do not alter the distance between you and non-moving subject, well unless you also shifted your body and thus your original camera position in relation to your subject was slightly altered. In which case unless the DOF for the aperture selected is deep enough to retain your subject within this DOF, you could end up getting a slightly out-of-focus subject. When you wrote "And I get out-of-focus image on my subject." are you referring to what you saw in the view finder or the final picture after you have taken it and viewed on your LCD screen? This is important as it may indicate a different set of problems.

On your original question on exposure, when you wrote that you had lock your exposure by depressing the release button 1 notch, did you checked that it was indeed locked, before you pan your camera to re-compose? From your original question, it would appear that it was not locked. Read page 102 of your manual carefully.

 

[Yoricko]

The plane of focus shifts a little when you focus-and-recompose, but it is marginal and will not affect precise focusing (unless you're shooting at ƒ1.2/1.1/1/0.95 at close distances). Some causes of improper focus on RF cameras: RF not calibrated with lens, the particular lens has a focus-shift during at different apertures, the subject moves, you move (breathing), you need eyeglasses, the rangefinder patch is too small to focus accurately. Most of the time, it is the first few faults that causes improper focus with RF cameras.

To conduct a simple test for RF calibration or focus-shift:
Place 3 books upright, 1-3 centimetres apart from each other. Afterwards, paste sticky-tabs or stickers for ease of focusing. Then you will first focus on the book in the front, now take a shot. Now focus on the middle one, take another shot. Now the last one, take yet another shot. These should be shot at wide-open aperture with fixed shutter speeds/etc ON A TRIPOD. Compare the prints/text on the books and see which one is the clearest. If you find that the prints reads clearer on the books behind/in front of what you focused on, you've got a problem mate.

For focus shift, do the same thing, just at different apertures alongside with the wide-open results.

 

[dtohs]

Welcome leafster. I am no expert, but I think I understand you, because this "recompose question" used to puzzle me too. Lots of RF stuffs still puzzle me today. It may help if u share with us what do you shoot.

I shall try to share my experience in lay men terms, am terrible in technical terms anyway. i suggest u try hard to gauge the distance-difference of your focal point after you recomposed, get past that, most thing should slowly fall into place.

When I shoot at f2 and larger, and if my subject is in the range of nearer than 2m, I have the habit of compensating slightly when I recomposed, but i feel the difference is very minor. I think you know by now that the distance between your focal point and your sensor plane matches the range marking on your lens barrel, (that took me 2 years to realize until i read chiif's thread), if need be make some compensation on your lens before you shoot. However, this slight compensation feels more emotional than technical to me really, of at least for my photos. I think it’s a bad habit; somehow I just choose to stick to it.

Also in a very unbiased way, I get more kick when applying this bad habit when I am shooting film.

All these talks, i dont even own a 50 lux..

WTF..... i mean welcome to fotography..

 

[newghost]

Summilux shouldn't be that bad i think, try the Zeiss ZM sonnar 50mm f1.5... my copy is optimised for f2.8 and when shot wide open at close distance, i need to focus on the subject's ear to get the subject's eyes in sharp focus - that is the notorious focus shift! Of course, at f2.8, its sharp where it should be and with a rendition of a sonnar (and zeiss's pop) to die for!

 

[hydroburn249]

i've always wondered, would people be more accepting of focus shifts and "optimization" if it were to happen on other brand lenses. some may hate me for saying this, but just cos its a Leica, Zeiss etc, u guys seem to be quite accepting of focus shifts. please dont :flame: me.

Summilux shouldn't be that bad i think, try the Zeiss ZM sonnar 50mm f1.5... my copy is optimised for f2.8 and when shot wide open at close distance, i need to focus on the subject's ear to get the subject's eyes in sharp focus - that is the notorious focus shift! Of course, at f2.8, its sharp where it should be and with a rendition of a sonnar (and zeiss's pop) to die for!

 

[newghost]

The zm sonnar is all worth the trouble coz when you get it right, its totally mind blowing!

Well, the nokton 35/1.2 v1 is still one popular lens no?

 

[leafster]

Thanks for all the comments and sharing of experiences, mates. Is really useful information for me.

I have absorbed some of your sharing and put it to tests, though is still in middle of it. I will update the thread again and hopefully I can nail some of the pointers given to me. Is really challenging so far. Is great to see the amount of space in viewfinder outside framing lines that shows a larger view of the scene I am shooting, which can anticipate movement that’s happening beyond the frame. :thumbsup:

 

[Yoricko]

Challenging? The M camera is one of the most refined cameras out there ...

Focus, aperture, shutter, sensitivity of material, and inner emotions. All you need to make the picture.

Just merge the image, twirl the ring on your lens, turn the shutter dial, and trigger with your heart.

 

[sjackal]

Challenging? The M camera is one of the most refined cameras out there ...

Focus, aperture, shutter, sensitivity of material, and inner emotions. All you need to make the picture.

Just merge the image, twirl the ring on your lens, turn the shutter dial, and trigger with your heart.

Indeed.

Try problematic Russian rangefinders and you will know the Leica M series are the gems. Wish I have one.

 

[leafster]

Challenging? The M camera is one of the most refined cameras out there ...

Focus, aperture, shutter, sensitivity of material, and inner emotions. All you need to make the picture.

Just merge the image, twirl the ring on your lens, turn the shutter dial, and trigger with your heart.

I know what you mean. At least for me who still need practices to get what I want and expect. Definitely a learning curve there and shooting style has change. Everyone comes from different level of background but that's just how I feel.

 

[artspraken]

I can't help coz I do not understand the question. I read your text and see only 1 question which doesn't seem to make sense to me. see red below. maybe if you clarify what your question is, we can help better.

Hi all,

I have had my first kick into rangefinder using M9P with 50mm Summilux ASPH. I spent several years with dslr and just in the transition into using rangefinder. I have question on focus point when re-compose. Hopefully can get some tips from experts here.

Decided to rephrase after re-read as my initial posting causes mix-up. Apology for the wrong thread title. I do have exposure questions but will run some tests again before I ask around.
The focus is done through superimposed imaging method at the center. So I have to reframe to the subject I want in focus (assume placing subject in a third of frame). I move the focusing square to the object that should be in focus, make the images lay on top of each other, then recompose to have what I want in the frame. I tends to get out-of-focus image on my subject. How much to turn the focus to get the actual desired focus?

I will test out again at other f-stop as one of the members point out wide open focusing is challenging. Many thanks.
Would be great if can join RF outing to learn more.

Happy shooting!

 

[leafster]

I can't help coz I do not understand the question. I read your text and see only 1 question which doesn't seem to make sense to me. see red below. maybe if you clarify what your question is, we can help better.

For me is a problem on focus/recompose technique at wide aperture. First subject focusing will establish a plane of focus. In order to place subject at say rule of third composition, will have to reframe. For recompose that move camera parallel along the initial plane of focus (horizontal), it still able to have the subject in focus. However if is not in parallel, a slight change of angle will change the plane of focus. Meaning a new plane of focus will change. At wide aperture, the DOF is not deep and hence subject probably will not be in focus.

So far my test for the latter case, I have to lean either backward or forward to get subject back in focus. The easiest method is to stop down for deeper DOF, but I'm just exploring methods for focus/recompose technique at wide aperture. Moving the camera parallel to the plane of focus is probably the safest method yet.

 

[leafster]

@Cactus jACK, New2digital
Thanks for pointing out the shift of focus plane that could happen during recompose. Put me to think along this line and my tests are positive so far.

@Yoricko
I did some testing at wide aperture as to what you have suggested. Didn't see focus shift but going to repeat the test just to reaffirm myself. Thanks.

@dtohs
Thanks for your sharing. Gauging the distance-difference of my focal point and compensating, I still need to practice a lot at wide aperture. Sometime it just went off.