Questions about Medium Format cameras

[Shiro MS08th]

Kinda got interested in using a MF camera.
Browse through this sub-forum and know that a there's some cheap 2nd hand entry level TLR.
So wanna ask questions on it, sorry if it's very newbie questions.


1) TLR means camera has fixed lens and can't change right?

2) Does it have built in flash?

3) Is TLR fully manual? Like no shuttle or aperture priority?

4) Does it have autofocus for entry level TLR?

4) What's a digital back?

5) Is it a must to mount on a tripod/monopod to take photos using MF camera?

6) In average, how much does a roll of 120, 220 film costs? Developing fees also?

7) What are some cheap 2nd hand entry level TLR cameras?

8) Does MF TLR need to be serviced oftenly?

I'm kinda interested in the Yashicamat enivre is selling
http://forums.clubsnap.org/showthread.php?t=146665

Look around for website of that reviews, saying it's one of the best for that price.

By the way how to know the TLR is shooting at 6X4.5 or 6X6?

Most probably using it to shoot streets and learn using film, since one shutter = use one permanent slot that can't be deleted or preview.
Will really think on the shutter and aperture too.
Also it's a new experience using a MF!

Thanks in advance for answering the questions!

 

[enivre]

1) Yeaps.. but if I'm not wrong there's a Mamiya C330 that can...

2) No built in flash...

3) Yes it's COMPLETELY manual, it's 30-40 years old man...

4) Digital back is basically what you add on to MF SLRs in place of the traditional film back to make your MF a digital camera. You can't do that for TLRs...

5) No, I've shot my Yashicamat off tripod at 1/2secs and still got sharp results... coz it's pretty light and it's a leaf shutter..

6) 120 roll costs anything from $4 - $8 depending on what you want, processing costs from $3-$5 (rough estimates), one roll at 6x6 can let u shoot 12 shots

7) Cheap ones are seagulls, but reputation wise sometimes a little dodgy..

8) Actually no... mechanical cameras can last a lifetime if kept properly

As for my Yashicamat, yeap it's reputed to quite good. It shoots at 6x6... if you really interested I can bring down some slides to let you have a look for yourself.

Yeaps.. let me know if you are interested.

Ervine

 

[Shiro MS08th]

Oh.
So fully manual as in SLR term M mode and in focusing also must self turn the ring yourself?

Wah 1/2 secs and no handshake and all that?
Cause for SLR, anything less than 1/60 secs is risky liao.

Leaf shutter is what?
Shutter is what?
Slides is what?

Now I try to get more information on MF.
Real interested in getting your yashicamat when I confirm to try out MF, but maybe in 1-2 months time.
No money now.

 

[enivre]

there are no modes... no M no A no P nothing.. it's just Manual all the way, focusing, aperture, shutter speed, etc etc...

1/2sec is POSSIBLE to go w/o handshake but you need to be very stable yourself lah... don't be expecting to run around at 1/2...

Leaf shutters.. how to explain... just different from normal 35mm SLR shutters...

What is shutter??? This one if you don't know then I cannot help you also...

Slides or transparencies are a type of film, for negatives when you look at the processed film you can't make out much, slides on the other hand are positives which result in you being able to see the photo as it is supposed to look merely from the processed film itself (thru a lightbox)

Let me know when you want it..

 

[zeiss planar]

Oh.
So fully manual as in SLR term M mode and in focusing also must self turn the ring yourself?

Wah 1/2 secs and no handshake and all that?
Cause for SLR, anything less than 1/60 secs is risky liao.

Leaf shutter is what?
Shutter is what?
Slides is what?

Now I try to get more information on MF.
Real interested in getting your yashicamat when I confirm to try out MF, but maybe in 1-2 months time.
No money now.

All MF camera are a pain to operate as compare to the more common SLR.

1)You just can't pick up your camera and shoot , unlike a slr.You need to compose the picture , get the exposure reading , set aperture and shutter speed and finally focusing .

2)However the end results are stunning if not overwhelming if you have done all your composition and meter it right. Try shooting any scene with both a 35mm and 120mm film....you will know what I mean.

3)Look and hunt around for a good TLR.A good TLR is only worth it price if it's lenses are in good condition.If you simply just want to get a feel of a TLR , then maybe I suggest you get a cheapo china made seagull which I have personally use it during my school days 20~30 years ago.

4)Otherwise shop for a Rolleiflex .Any rolleiflexTLR , whether it is a F3.5 or F2.8 model is good as long as it lenses and shutter are in good condition.Lenses must be clean and clear without scratch mark - minor hairline scratch is still ok as it doesn't affect the overall resolving power of the picture and I'm sure you can bargain for a better price too.Shutter must be tested at all speed especially the slower 1sec~1/30 sec.Make sure it's not 'sticky' but it can be fix easily by a experience repairman.

5)Mamiya c220 and c330 is also a good buy since it can change lens but pretty heavy as compare to a Rolleiflex TLR.I will not recommed it to a newbie in MF.

6) I have a Rolleiflex F2.8 E model which was made in 1956 and it is still working just fine.This goes to show how precise german engineering already is during those day .

7)Go and read and do some research on the web and ask around those 2nd hand shop in peninsula .Do some leg work to get a feel of all prices for various model before you decide on one.

 

[fastshot]

I don't think all MF cameras are a pain to operate. The Mamiya 6 and 7 are very nice to use and fast to operate , even against SLR.

My opinions on the following types:

a) Seagull TLR (tried one but don't own one) - cheap, "rough" finish & controls, but can take great pictures at F8. If you want this, get the one with at least 4 lens elements (somewhat ala Tessar design).

b) Mamiya C330 TLR (own and use) - heavy, bullet proof, interchangeable lens is nice. If I can only bring 1 camera that can survive anything, this would be it. 100% mechanical, 0% electronics. Some of the lenses are quite good in particular the 55mm, 105mm, 180mm (I also own the 80, 135 and 250). The color palette is quite gentle and moderate contrast -- not of Zeiss or Rollei standard, but very acceptable nonetheless. This is my first MF camera and has travelled with me to Nepal on mountain trek.

c) Rolleiflex 2.8GX Expression. TLR - (own and seldom use) - this is build like Rolls Royce, very beautiful and nice to "play" it. Very expensive for new ones. Very compact and light weight. Excellent Planar lens, fixed, not interchangeable. Has build in light meter - very accurate and sensitive. I bought this more for it's refined engineering rather than any intended use. If I could only keep 1 camera, this would be it.

d) Mamiya 6MF rangefinder (own and use) - excellent travel MF camera. 3 top class nterchangeable lens and collapsible bellows. Capable of top notch pictures equal to anything the Germans produce. Not easy to focus accurately for portraits with the 150mm lens. Has AP mode, but metering is easily affected by stray light from the sky hitting the rangefinder window. The collapsible bellow is not very strong and may not survive a significant frontal impact (breaking the locking lugs inside, but can be repaired though). this is my most travelled MF cam and is great for street shoot. It is available used at a reasonable price. Much lighter than C330 and the pictures will blow Leica M away. Some US shooters use this for weddings.

e) Mamiya 7 (II) rangefinder (own and use) - this is one of top drawer camera for travel/landscape photographers. 6x7 format, lightweight, interchangeable lens, accurate build in metering, AP mode, multiple exposure capable. Again, has some of the best lenses in MF. I got the Mamiya 43mm (comparable to Zeiss Biogon) permanently mounted on my cam. Expensive when new, but quite often available used for reasonable prices.

f) Mamiya RZ67 Pro - SLR (own and use) - this (and the mechanical RB) is the workhorse for the studio shooter. Extremely versatile for studio and commercial work. Alot of very good lenses. And now available very cheaply in the used market. Not so easy to handhold. Best used on a substantial tripod. Digital backs are available, but at stratospheric prices.

I have not used MF Rollei or the Hasselblad SLR. I have no doubt they can produce top notch pixs but the lenses are so very expensive relative to the Japanese.

For the original poster, the whole idea of going into MF is not all about the camera only. It's the whole package about film choices, finding places to get quality support for film development, scanning and printing large pictures. If you are not thinking at least A3 prints or larger, then you won't benefit much from the extra quality available from MF.

 

[Shiro MS08th]

there are no modes... no M no A no P nothing.. it's just Manual all the way, focusing, aperture, shutter speed, etc etc...

1/2sec is POSSIBLE to go w/o handshake but you need to be very stable yourself lah... don't be expecting to run around at 1/2...

Leaf shutters.. how to explain... just different from normal 35mm SLR shutters...

What is shutter??? This one if you don't know then I cannot help you also...

Slides or transparencies are a type of film, for negatives when you look at the processed film you can't make out much, slides on the other hand are positives which result in you being able to see the photo as it is supposed to look merely from the processed film itself (thru a lightbox)

Let me know when you want it..

Oh. So it's is possible for handheld is low speeds as long you are standing and quite stable?
And on asking the shutter one, typo, that time was trying to ask what is leaf shutter.

All MF camera are a pain to operate as compare to the more common SLR.

1)You just can't pick up your camera and shoot , unlike a slr.You need to compose the picture , get the exposure reading , set aperture and shutter speed and finally focusing .

2)However the end results are stunning if not overwhelming if you have done all your composition and meter it right. Try shooting any scene with both a 35mm and 120mm film....you will know what I mean.

3)Look and hunt around for a good TLR.A good TLR is only worth it price if it's lenses are in good condition.If you simply just want to get a feel of a TLR , then maybe I suggest you get a cheapo china made seagull which I have personally use it during my school days 20~30 years ago.

4)Otherwise shop for a Rolleiflex .Any rolleiflexTLR , whether it is a F3.5 or F2.8 model is good as long as it lenses and shutter are in good condition.Lenses must be clean and clear without scratch mark - minor hairline scratch is still ok as it doesn't affect the overall resolving power of the picture and I'm sure you can bargain for a better price too.Shutter must be tested at all speed especially the slower 1sec~1/30 sec.Make sure it's not 'sticky' but it can be fix easily by a experience repairman.

5)Mamiya c220 and c330 is also a good buy since it can change lens but pretty heavy as compare to a Rolleiflex TLR.I will not recommed it to a newbie in MF.

6) I have a Rolleiflex F2.8 E model which was made in 1956 and it is still working just fine.This goes to show how precise german engineering already is during those day .

7)Go and read and do some research on the web and ask around those 2nd hand shop in peninsula .Do some leg work to get a feel of all prices for various model before you decide on one.

What's the meaning of not 'sticky'?
So how much a good condition of Rolleiflex F2.8 E cost nowadays?

I don't think all MF cameras are a pain to operate. The Mamiya 6 and 7 are very nice to use and fast to operate , even against SLR.

My opinions on the following types:

a) Seagull TLR (tried one but don't own one) - cheap, "rough" finish & controls, but can take great pictures at F8. If you want this, get the one with at least 4 lens elements (somewhat ala Tessar design).

b) Mamiya C330 TLR (own and use) - heavy, bullet proof, interchangeable lens is nice. If I can only bring 1 camera that can survive anything, this would be it. 100% mechanical, 0% electronics. Some of the lenses are quite good in particular the 55mm, 105mm, 180mm (I also own the 80, 135 and 250). The color palette is quite gentle and moderate contrast -- not of Zeiss or Rollei standard, but very acceptable nonetheless. This is my first MF camera and has travelled with me to Nepal on mountain trek.

c) Rolleiflex 2.8GX Expression. TLR - (own and seldom use) - this is build like Rolls Royce, very beautiful and nice to "play" it. Very expensive for new ones. Very compact and light weight. Excellent Planar lens, fixed, not interchangeable. Has build in light meter - very accurate and sensitive. I bought this more for it's refined engineering rather than any intended use. If I could only keep 1 camera, this would be it.

d) Mamiya 6MF rangefinder (own and use) - excellent travel MF camera. 3 top class nterchangeable lens and collapsible bellows. Capable of top notch pictures equal to anything the Germans produce. Not easy to focus accurately for portraits with the 150mm lens. Has AP mode, but metering is easily affected by stray light from the sky hitting the rangefinder window. The collapsible bellow is not very strong and may not survive a significant frontal impact (breaking the locking lugs inside, but can be repaired though). this is my most travelled MF cam and is great for street shoot. It is available used at a reasonable price. Much lighter than C330 and the pictures will blow Leica M away. Some US shooters use this for weddings.

e) Mamiya 7 (II) rangefinder (own and use) - this is one of top drawer camera for travel/landscape photographers. 6x7 format, lightweight, interchangeable lens, accurate build in metering, AP mode, multiple exposure capable. Again, has some of the best lenses in MF. I got the Mamiya 43mm (comparable to Zeiss Biogon) permanently mounted on my cam. Expensive when new, but quite often available used for reasonable prices.

f) Mamiya RZ67 Pro - SLR (own and use) - this (and the mechanical RB) is the workhorse for the studio shooter. Extremely versatile for studio and commercial work. Alot of very good lenses. And now available very cheaply in the used market. Not so easy to handhold. Best used on a substantial tripod. Digital backs are available, but at stratospheric prices.

I have not used MF Rollei or the Hasselblad SLR. I have no doubt they can produce top notch pixs but the lenses are so very expensive relative to the Japanese.

For the original poster, the whole idea of going into MF is not all about the camera only. It's the whole package about film choices, finding places to get quality support for film development, scanning and printing large pictures. If you are not thinking at least A3 prints or larger, then you won't benefit much from the extra quality available from MF.

Thanks for your opinions on those MF, but most probably I would want to get a TLR below $200-300.

And ya, actually I also wanted to know which shops will develop MF format photographs that is of decent to good quality, and also shops will scan into CD for you, the higher res the better. I only know my friend recommend me Beautiful Memories for normal prints, not sure got MF prints anot.

 

[bluesman]

I know this guy who runs a black and white darkroom in Holland Village recently. He has many years of darkroom experience with top studios and ad agencies. He specializes in commercial tone print and fine-art custom print in RC and Fiber-base papers. You can contact him at 9698-9671 (Mr.Chua).

 

[singscott]

There mainly two type of shuttler design focal plane and leaf. Focal plane have a X syrco speed and usually build in the camera. That you can only set shuttler speed at it or slower then it when using flash. Because it design if you set higher then the X syrco when using flash apart of the shuttle will cover the picture and photo will have a black image coving a part of it. But the design will allow a faster maxium shuttle speed when use for non flash photography. Where the leaf shuttle design there no X syrco speed and it is usually found in the lens. All the shuttle speed can be use for flash photography. But because of it design it usually have a slower maxium speed then focal plane.Hope this is useful to you.

 

[enivre]

If you are not thinking at least A3 prints or larger, then you won't benefit much from the extra quality available from MF.

Agreed!..

 

[Splutter]

Medium format also has the shallow dof that 35mm doesn't have. Its not always about the quality of the print outs.

 

[hongsien]

Agreed!..

Not really, you forgot larger films have better tonality, better shadow details, even in small prints you can see the differences.......and the shallower depth of field.........this is one of the more convincing reasons to switch to larger formats.

Hong Sien

 

[fuwen]

Not really, you forgot larger films have better tonality, better shadow details, even in small prints you can see the differences.......and the shallower depth of field.........this is one of the more convincing reasons to switch to larger formats.

Hong Sien

I do not quite agree also. 3R/3S or 4R/4S aside, if u print 5R/5S, put side by side with a 35mm 5R print, I am quite sure the difference is very obvious!

 

[fastshot]

Not really, you forgot larger films have better tonality, better shadow details, even in small prints you can see the differences.......and the shallower depth of field.........this is one of the more convincing reasons to switch to larger formats.

Hong Sien

All true. But MF really pulls ahead of 35 format once the print size gets big.
It's like saying a luxury sports car also feels good in city traffic, but the big thrill comes on in the open roads.
Having said that, we can still see many Porsches, Ferraris, Mesaratis etc in our city. Nothing wrong with that at all if one can afford it, but to each his/her own and everyone is happy :bsmilie:

 

[Mezzotint]

I send my 120 roll films for processing and Contact Prints only at Fee Fee, located at Chinatown area. Right behind Chinatown Point, Hong Lim Complex. Heard they are gonna renovate their shop soon. Contact Print cost $10 per roll. They charge $2.00 for 4S format (6x6). $1.50 for 4R (6x4.5) format. Quite decent image quality they produce.

No doubts everyone wants to buy the best photographic equipments they can afford. But for a good start-up, you can try Seagull TLR though cheap, they are simple and easy to use. I own 2 TLRs - Shanghai (predecessor to Seagull) and Seagull 4A (the one with the film advance crank). Though these old Chinese TLRs have lenses in 3 Groups 3 elements, they can still produce good images.

Here are a couple of shots I took with my Shanghai TLR. Hope it serves a good reference material for you.

These are the pictures taken from my personal photographic project - Nite Projekt. All images are results of long-exposures on Kodak Tmax 400.

 

[sabrewolf]

Don't forget nothing beats seeing slide films at larger sizes. You'll drool all the way to 8"x10" large format in no time

 

[Narsuitus]

TLR (Twin Lens Reflex) Pro:

Minimal vibrations during exposure
Quieter than comparable SLR
Less expensive than comparable SLR
Subject visible in viewfinder at moment of exposure
Difficult to make the mistake of shooting with the lens cap on
Easy to focus with dark filter on the lens

TLR (Twin Lens Reflex) Con:

Depth of field not visible on view screen
Hard to change film in the middle of a roll
Few models available
Not good for macrophotography
Image viewed through waist level viewfinder is reversed left to right

 

[hongsien]

So.............have you bought a TLR yet?

HS

 

[Narsuitus]

I have used the following TLR cameras:

Yashica
Mamiya C3
Mamiya C22
Mamiya C220

Ass were 6x6cm format cameras.

The Yashica was a fixed lens that came with a standard normal lens.

For the interchangeable lens Mamiya, in addition to the 80mm f2.8 normal lens, I also had a 55mm f4.5 wide-angle and a 180mm f4.5 telephoto lens . The 180mm lens I primarily used for shooting portraits. All three lenses I used to shoot weddings.

I no longer shoot with these cameras (I replaced them with 6x7 and 6x9 format rangefinders). However, if I were in your position, these are the TLR cameras I would consider in order of priority:

1. Mamiya 220
2. Mamiya 22
3. Rolleiflex
4. Mamiya 330
5. Mamiya 33
6. Yashica
7. Seagull

 

[sf_kang]

If you're serious about medium format, best would be to purchase a system camera that allows you to change lenses and film backs. Hassy's are good investment. Some used Hassy's in good condition are still reasonably priced. And you can beat the Carl Zeiss T* lenses.

Just start with a 500C/M with the std 80mm Plannar/2.8. Learned to handle the camera and learn how to compose with the square format. You'd be surprised it really opens up a new way of composing and a completely different feeling when you look through the 6X6 focussing screen.

I own a 503CXi and a 903SWC and I am very pleased with them. Can show some photos taken with them to those who are seriously interested.

br/porcupine