Minolta "Project DSLR" !!!!!


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Originally posted by cham4807
:eek:
All this talk about a Minolta DSLR coming out soon. I'll believe it when I see it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm still waiting to get my hands on the new SSM lenses, for the last year & a Half and I'm getting tired of waiting!
I'm thinking of buying the Canon 10D body and the New Tamron 28-75 f2.8 'Di' lens. I'll keep my D7 & D9 as I have about 200 rolls of Fuji Velvia, Provia 100 & 400 to use!!
But I think I will eventually built up on the Canon side of things and cut back on the Minolta side if Minolta don't wake up and smell the COFFEE!!

Cheers

Paul

Well if u responded to the internet survey by Minolta the previous round, you would have also received another website-based survey from them again. I just filled up the survey and submitted it. It looks like Minolta is serious about pushing out a DSLR for its users.

You can respond here: http://www.minoltaphotoworld.com/poll and help speed up the decision-making at Minolta.

And oh BTW, u take a look at the forum topic listing, the prices for the SSMs are out already albeit only in Yen. But that's a start......
 

yeah.... I think Minolta is serious about this DSLR, they even send email and give me the statu of the last survey which only distribute thru email. Now they published it on Internet... hopefully DSLR will come out very soon.


rgds,
Andre
 

if u wait then u wont get to live now

dont live for the future

live now

honestly if i used minoltas i would have switched camp by now.

think about it:light:
 

Well, I'm in no hurry to go digital and I'm only waiting for a DSLR so that I may port over my existing lens collection for digital use.

The loss would be great if you happen to own prime or high-speed lenses for a particular make.

If you're really in need to go digital work-flow, then change system. For those who really do need to go digital, they would have already done so by now and would not have bothered to wait out for Minolta.

Good things comes to those who wait, but that may not be always true. So this has always been a freedom of choice in terms of systems and brands while pursuing photography. Each his own.

For me, its still Minolta. ;)
 

Hey clive, if you think that the lot of us are going to abandon our investments and jump to another camp, I have a bridge to sell you...

...or at least a lot of Minolta gear. : )

As the above stated, if, for whatever reason, we -absolutely- needed a digital SLR, we would have all ran out and purchased one a long time ago.

ok, that's it, I've fed the troll. : )
 

Originally posted by clive
if u wait then u wont get to live now

dont live for the future

live now

honestly if i used minoltas i would have switched camp by now.

think about it:light:


Haste often leads to errors in judgement.......... and the need to keep up often bankrupts you financially...... I'll wait for a DSLR that is good to have but not essential...... afterall, what's wrong with a film camera that performs the job as well as or better than the digital counterpart? And how many of us actually need a DSLR for that matter? Perhaps only if u need for your work.... for the rest of us hoobyists, avid photographers, the film camera is still a stringent test of your skills since u can't edit the shot...... and for that Minolta makes superb cameras on par with Nikon or Canon or Sigma or Pentax or Contax or Leica or whatever 35mm SLRs out there.......
 

I filled out the Minolta survey I got e-mailed from them on what I would like to see in a DSLR.
I was just reading the e-mail I got from Minolta and it got me thinking again!!
The bit of the e-mail the stuck in my Mind was 'The survey closes at on Sunday 13th July 2003'. Surely a surevy should last a week or 2 if not more to get as many replies as possible.
Now my theory is a little mad and far fetched but maybe Minolta are going to announce something on Monday the 14th July!!!
But then a again, I am just grasping at straws like everybody else out there in the hope that Minolta will release or at least announce they are working on a DSLR.

Have fun,

Paul ;p
 

even if Minolta comes out with DSLR, I will not buy it yet, and that's not because I just got my Dynax 7, but rather technology is moving too fast. What is good as 10MP will not be good in 2 years time. Besides, the savings I make on film is not as significant as spending it on a 10MP camera since I don't shoot so much.

If you are talking about 6MP camera, then you will feel the inadequacy even more when 10MP becomes the norm, just like 5MP is for now. I more thing I'm inadequate in is all those white balance, adjustments, editing on Photoshop and stuff. I don't have the patience to sit down and play with my images. I'd rather sweat it out when taking the picture, then just sit back and enjoy my pictures.

However, I'm still excited about filling out the email surveys (I've done so already), cos it means Minolta is still showing the world that it is serious with 35mm business and our lens can be used if and when Minolta's DSLR comes out. Even though it may be at least several years before I'll upgrade to a DSLR, if I ever do, by then technology will be more stabalised. Meanwhile, I'd just enjoy creating images on silver halides and my ever reliable Minolta cameras. :)
 

Originally posted by yeocolin
even if Minolta comes out with DSLR, I will not buy it yet, and that's not because I just got my Dynax 7, but rather technology is moving too fast. What is good as 10MP will not be good in 2 years time. Besides, the savings I make on film is not as significant as spending it on a 10MP camera since I don't shoot so much.

If you are talking about 6MP camera, then you will feel the inadequacy even more when 10MP becomes the norm, just like 5MP is for now. I more thing I'm inadequate in is all those white balance, adjustments, editing on Photoshop and stuff. I don't have the patience to sit down and play with my images. I'd rather sweat it out when taking the picture, then just sit back and enjoy my pictures.

However, I'm still excited about filling out the email surveys (I've done so already), cos it means Minolta is still showing the world that it is serious with 35mm business and our lens can be used if and when Minolta's DSLR comes out. Even though it may be at least several years before I'll upgrade to a DSLR, if I ever do, by then technology will be more stabalised. Meanwhile, I'd just enjoy creating images on silver halides and my ever reliable Minolta cameras. :)

I dun think u need >10MP lor...... if what u get with a full sized CCD or whatever sensor is used gives u the same quality as negatives or slides, then I dun think there is a need really for higher pixels cos it doesn't add to the picture. U need a printer also to be able to capture all that extra detail which is not possible now even with the latest generation of photo printers. And >10MP is probably useful only for very large enlargements. Not sure if I'm making any sense here but that's my understanding at the moment given what I had read about the technical aspects of tbe full sized sensors on the Canon and Kodak and Nikon DSLRs that were released recently.
 

I was told by some veteran photographers that film is actually equivalent to 20MP??? Not very sure about this, but I understand that digital still have difficulty capturing certain colours, such as green, and some other details (very technical, so I'm not sure of the details)

Anyway, like what I read from some magazines, just as when television came, people thought radio will become a dinosaur. When colour film came, people thought black and white will become a fossil. Many writers postulate that film will not disappear, but will play its role alongside digital, which is definitely here to stay and become a dominant force sooner rather than later.

Of course, only time will tell. But the key thing is to continue to enjoy and improve your photography. :)
 

Originally posted by yeocolin
I was told by some veteran photographers that film is actually equivalent to 20MP??? Not very sure about this, but I understand that digital still have difficulty capturing certain colours, such as green, and some other details (very technical, so I'm not sure of the details)

Anyway, like what I read from some magazines, just as when television came, people thought radio will become a dinosaur. When colour film came, people thought black and white will become a fossil. Many writers postulate that film will not disappear, but will play its role alongside digital, which is definitely here to stay and become a dominant force sooner rather than later.

Of course, only time will tell. But the key thing is to continue to enjoy and improve your photography. :)

Agree...... I just love film leh...... Dun know but I feel it is more authentic? Just some posturing on my part?? hahaha........... anyway photography has always been the hobby of the rich (not that I am) and it's only now that it was become more equitable.......
 

Regarding film being the equivalent of 20MP...

Yes and no. If taken with superb glass at the optimum aperture on a tripod with extremely low-grain film and scanned with an extremely high-quality scanner, then yes: Film can be the equivalent of 20+ MP -- even 40.

However, since all of the above is rarely the case, it doesn't take much to bring film down to the realm of 8-16MP.
 

Originally posted by Nightshade
Regarding film being the equivalent of 20MP...

Yes and no. If taken with superb glass at the optimum aperture on a tripod with extremely low-grain film and scanned with an extremely high-quality scanner, then yes: Film can be the equivalent of 20+ MP -- even 40.

However, since all of the above is rarely the case, it doesn't take much to bring film down to the realm of 8-16MP.

If I understand u correctly, then u are saying that super high MP digital cameras are better than film cameras in terms of being able to produce faithful a reproduction as what our eyes see? I mean comparing same body, lens SLRs? Would that be correct?

Cos I understand that digital capturing of data is a sampling process. So there is a certain threshold before the capture process cuts off... at levels which probably our eyes (for photography) and ears (for audio) cannot detect....... that is the range of the signals are outside the natural frequencies of our physignomy.....

But film or analog data capture because of it's inherent nature as a continuous medium of record does not have such a threshold. So for that matter, film will always capture more data and perhaps even intangibles that affect the way we look at the picture without our being aware of it and which we cannot capture on a digital device?

I am aware that this is the case for audio data capture where the speech or singing of a person can be only fully captured by an analog device like a cassette tape since all nuances and discernible and out-of-our-range audio frequencies are captured on the tape. Given this analogy, I believe that this may be the case for digital video and still photography devices too.

Anyone has any idea? I would appreciate some comments on this area or even on the audio stuff that I raised. I would like to know what is the correct understanding of the digital versus analog divide where our senses are concerned.
 

Originally posted by TME


I am aware that this is the case for audio data capture where the speech or singing of a person can be only fully captured by an analog device like a cassette tape since all nuances and discernible and out-of-our-range audio frequencies are captured on the tape. Given this analogy, I believe that this may be the case for digital video and still photography devices too.
Tapes are far less linear and have a more limited bandwidth than what can be achieved digitally. The main problems with digital lies in the A-D D-A process where distortions are introduced in the form of jitter and and in the analog reconstruction process.

Its very easy to get a very wide bandwidth in digital, just that other problems such as jitter are then magnified due to the high sampling rate.

Conversion of analogue audio data to digital depends on 2 variables, sampling rate(Hz) and precision(number of discrete levels or "bits"). The sampling rate determines wat frequencies(nyquist theorem- must sample at >2x of capture frequency) can be captured and the precision determines how closely that event in time mirrors the waveform amplitude at that instance.

To relate this to film/imaging, think of the number of pixels as the sampling rate and for each pixel, there is the number of bits which determines the colour precision. The equivalent of frequencies in imaging would LPH( lines per picture height).

Though film may seem superior due to it's "analogue" nature, do not forget that the amount of useful detail it carries is limited by the film grain(analoguous to the noisefloor in audio). The size of the film grain determines the useful limit of the info, likewise for digital images where digital noise may occlude detail.

The best 35mm slides may still hold the resolution edge against 6MP DSLRs, however this is assuming that it is kept in its native form, or scanned at a resolution far higher than the useful detail it may contain.

If one's workflow involves digital editing whatsoever, then he is better off working digital direct to avoid conversion losses.

For the majority of film users who may not have access to a megabuck 4000dpi film scanner, the results may usually be worse off than a 6MP DSLR, especially in the case of high ISO noise where DSLRs do seem to hold an edge.

There have been reports on the web of people who compared 20-30MP drum scans of 35mm film to the 1Ds with merely 11MP and the conclusion was clearly in favour of the 1Ds. Only medium format film with over 4x the area can still compete in this regard.

What Nightshade is trying to point out is that most users are not able to get the best out of their film unless at a great cost, which makes all the supposed effective MP rating of film moot.

Where I differ is that I'm not too optimistic about the real resolution of film in equivalent MP. Methinks its only at the 10MP level at best.(Reference to 1Ds sensor)
 

Originally posted by TME
I dun think u need >10MP lor...... if what u get with a full sized CCD or whatever sensor is used gives u the same quality as negatives or slides, then I dun think there is a need really for higher pixels cos it doesn't add to the picture. U need a printer also to be able to capture all that extra detail which is not possible now even with the latest generation of photo printers. And >10MP is probably useful only for very large enlargements. Not sure if I'm making any sense here but that's my understanding at the moment given what I had read about the technical aspects of tbe full sized sensors on the Canon and Kodak and Nikon DSLRs that were released recently.

I'm only hoping for 100% view finder and full frame 35mm CCD as opposed to the ones in the 10D and D100.

5MP and above is good enough for up to 10R print.

I'm quite contented with that res.;)
 

Thanks Zerstoer, that was enlightening. Urrm... Nightshade if u have some input please feel free to join in.

But I have some clarifications to make (Zerstoer). I hope u could help me make some sense for me of the following points that I have thought of on reading your post. And if I may hazard a guess, the points I raised below have their place in the study of calculus but then again I'm just guessing. Thanks!




Conversion of analogue audio data to digital depends on 2 variables, sampling rate(Hz) and precision(number of discrete levels or "bits"). The sampling rate determines wat frequencies(nyquist theorem- must sample at >2x of capture frequency) can be captured and the precision determines how closely that event in time mirrors the waveform amplitude at that instance.


If we use the example of audio recording, now let's say u record an event at the same time using an analogue recorder and a digital recorder. Then what u explained about precision and sampling rates, indicates that there are still certain portions of the waveform captured by the analogue device which cannot be captured by the digital recorder. Unless the digital recorder has infinitely small sampling steps and so has precision that exactly mirrors the analgoue waveform. What kind of file sizes and sophistication of detection would that then entail? In which case, no matter how sophisticated the digital device, since its recording mechanism is determined by the number of bits that are available, it then is automatically inferior to the analogue device since there will always be portions of the waveform that will never be sampled. It's like when do we stop sampling in ever decreasing bit sizes? It's just like drawing rectangles under a curve and making them infinitely smaller to fit the curve and never reaching the perfect curvature of the line drawn since there will always be vanishingly small areas not covered by the infinitesimally small rectangles.


Applying this argument then to photography, while the "analogue" film has a limit due to the grain size, is it not also true then that any digital device that captures the same scene would have the same problem as the audio digital device described above of being limited by its sampling rate? The digital device records in terms of pixels, which in turn is made up of bits assigned to each colour. It then follows that to reproduce the colours correctly, u need an infinite number of infinitely small "steps" to ensure the complete reproduction of the colour since we are talking also again of a waveform (matching the colour). Then this leads to a prohibitively large number of pixels per picture we take but still due to the nature of the film grain, its precision still cannot be captured completely by a digital device?

Am I making any sense? :D





Though film may seem superior due to it's "analogue" nature, do not forget that the amount of useful detail it carries is limited by the film grain(analoguous to the noisefloor in audio). The size of the film grain determines the useful limit of the info, likewise for digital images where digital noise may occlude detail.

In reference to But if u were to use fine grain films like ASA50, would u then have a keener comparison between a >10MP (say 15-20MP) DSLR compared to a 35mm film SLR (using slides I presume)?




On another point, regarding the end use of the pictures taken, what about putting them in a book. That is sending your slides/negative/files to a publisher. Just to accompany text but one wants the most faithful reproduction? In such a case, would the DSLR with super high MP still win over the 35mm slide SLR? Maybe you could say compare between what is available now - i.e. the Kodak 14MP DSLR with film and a theoretical 20MP DSLR with film?


Thanks for your patient reading. And STShooter, sorry for hijacking your thread. I really should start a new thread but since it started here..... paiseh....... borrow lar!
 

Originally posted by TME

If we use the example of audio recording, now let's say u record an event at the same time using an analogue recorder and a digital recorder. Then what u explained about precision and sampling rates, indicates that there are still certain portions of the waveform captured by the analogue device which cannot be captured by the digital recorder. Unless the digital recorder has infinitely small sampling steps and so has precision that exactly mirrors the analgoue waveform. What kind of file sizes and sophistication of detection would that then entail? In which case, no matter how sophisticated the digital device, since its recording mechanism is determined by the number of bits that are available, it then is automatically inferior to the analogue device since there will always be portions of the waveform that will never be sampled. It's like when do we stop sampling in ever decreasing bit sizes? It's just like drawing rectangles under a curve and making them infinitely smaller to fit the curve and never reaching the perfect curvature of the line drawn since there will always be vanishingly small areas not covered by the infinitesimally small rectangles.

Ideally, yes. But what analogue recording medium has such an infinitely large bandwidth? The thing to note is that you are comparing digital conversion to the original event. However, you should be comparing it to the alternative method of analogue recording and in that case, you would have to consider the problems of non-linearity, limited bandwidth and other forms of distortion related to an analogue capture medium.


Applying this argument then to photography, while the "analogue" film has a limit due to the grain size, is it not also true then that any digital device that captures the same scene would have the same problem as the audio digital device described above of being limited by its sampling rate? The digital device records in terms of pixels, which in turn is made up of bits assigned to each colour. It then follows that to reproduce the colours correctly, u need an infinite number of infinitely small "steps" to ensure the complete reproduction of the colour since we are talking also again of a waveform (matching the colour). Then this leads to a prohibitively large number of pixels per picture we take but still due to the nature of the film grain, its precision still cannot be captured completely by a digital device?
Again, yes, but you are assuming that the film capture is perfect which isn't so at all. The number of colours the film can produce is still dependent on how the chemicals in it react to light. Colour precision wise, film may still hold the edge, but again there is always a practical limit to all things. As for resolution, as long as the digital medium can resolve to a level significantly smaller than the film grain, then there should no longer be any resolution advantage for film.






In reference to But if u were to use fine grain films like ASA50, would u then have a keener comparison between a >10MP (say 15-20MP) DSLR compared to a 35mm film SLR (using slides I presume)?
The examples I mentioned previously were using Provia 100F and Velvia as comparison. So they are already among the most resolving film you can get.




On another point, regarding the end use of the pictures taken, what about putting them in a book. That is sending your slides/negative/files to a publisher. Just to accompany text but one wants the most faithful reproduction? In such a case, would the DSLR with super high MP still win over the 35mm slide SLR? Maybe you could say compare between what is available now - i.e. the Kodak 14MP DSLR with film and a theoretical 20MP DSLR with film?
From a few testemonies on the net it may appear to be so.
 

Thanks again Zerstorer......... your answers have been very helpful....... and that is food for thought........
 

Here's a quick thing for you to ponder:

When the digital sensors are less than the size of a grain on a negative, which one has better resolving power? You might debate the answer, so how about 1/10th the size of a grain? 1/100th? As you can see, you can only make negatives so fine-grained, but with things in the computer world, particularly such a new technology as digital cameras, you have a loooooong ways to go. Digital -will- surpass film, if it hasn't already.

Furthermore, film isn't really "analog." Analog implies the ability to slope up to something, like a ramp -- digital would be stairs. Now, what precisely do you think the grain on a piece of film is? They are individual specks -- they either stay or they are washed away with fixer. That sounds pretty digital to me. Digital does not inherently mean electronic, it simply means, by definition, that it can be expressed in quanties of integers, or digits. (Now, this argument here was mainly semantics, but it is true -- film can only hold so much data due to its grain structure.) Look up "digital" if you don't believe me. ; )

TME: Yes, more pixels is always better -- even if you only print an 8x10, having a ludicrously high amount of pixels results in your ability to take a mere portion of the picture and turn it into an entire print. Try taking a sixth of a scanned 35mm frame and making a decent image out of it; it can be pretty tough.

TME (again): Yes, a super-high resolution digital camera will reproduce a scene better than film and will be able to do so with more resolution than your eyes have. Easily. It will be a long time before the engineers hit a wall in making the individual pixel receptors smaller and smaller on the CCD/CMOS/etc. chip. It's quite amazing that even in digital photography's infancy, we are already debating whether it has beat film yet (and, depending on circumstance, the EOS 1Ds can, supposedly). Look at HDs -- 5 years ago 6GB was expensive, now 160GB isn't unreasonable.

TME (once more): your post using the analog audio recording, on which I'm not an expert, makes one assumption: that the audio equipment used to record the sound is perfect and captures all frequencies, something nothing can do. And, while a year ago when I talked with a gentlemen from National Geographic who said they would not accept digital files and -only- take slides, many many groups today will take digital files. I emailed a 2.1 megapixel digital photo to a publisher who requested it. The print quality isn't fabulous, but it isn't too bad. : )

Zerstorer: Yes, you are correct in that what I'm trying to point out is that the theoretical resolution of film in no way approaches the realistic resolution. I have a Minolta Scan Elite II (2820dpi) and I use a Nikon somethingorother 4000dpi at work -- the both produce excellent results, but I don't believe that going much higher would be worthwhile.

In conclusion: more pixels is always better. Look at medium format; it has more data and thus looks tons better. I work in the photography department at my school, and I'm tellin' ya, you can tell the difference between an 8x10 MF print and an 8x10 35mm print just by looking at them. Easy. With enough pixels, our 35mm DSLRs will start to produce results like medium format cameras...think about that. All you really need is about 4 times the current resolution of 35mm film. : ) (I'm making a logical assumption, here.)
 

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