Minolta "Project DSLR" !!!!!


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Woah! Thanks Nightshade....... that was good! Hmm...... as I said it has set me thinking about film..............

Anyway, the argument that I hear is that film can capture the intangibles...... by that I mean thngs that may subconsciously affect the perception of the viewer as he views the picture?

What's your take on that? Would digital be able to do it? The logical assumption would be yes..... thanks again for taking the trouble to explain the workings of digital versus film to me.......
 

Originally posted by Nightshade
When the digital sensors are less than the size of a grain on a negative, which one has better resolving power?
There is one flaw. Digital sensors are much bigger than the silver halide crystals.

Now, what precisely do you think the grain on a piece of film is? They are individual specks -- they either stay or they are washed away with fixer. That sounds pretty digital to me.
Grain is small, are variable sized and are randomly spaced. Due to this, it is effectively analogue if you sample at low resolution. The key thing is the randomness due to grain interaction.

Easily. It will be a long time before the engineers hit a wall in making the individual pixel receptors smaller and smaller on the CCD/CMOS/etc. chip.
Last I heard, digital sensors cannot be too small, or they would not be sensitive to photons at all! :D

It's quite amazing that even in digital photography's infancy, we are already debating whether it has beat film yet (and, depending on circumstance, the EOS 1Ds can, supposedly).
I have two hunches: one, grain plays a big part in perceiving a better picture; two, most devices are biased towards digital -- they make grain worse than they are. Monitors and inkjet printers come to mind.
 

Originally posted by nhyone
There is one flaw. Digital sensors are much bigger than the silver halide crystals.

Grain is small, are variable sized and are randomly spaced. Due to this, it is effectively analogue if you sample at low resolution. The key thing is the randomness due to grain interaction.

Last I heard, digital sensors cannot be too small, or they would not be sensitive to photons at all! :D

I have two hunches: one, grain plays a big part in perceiving a better picture; two, most devices are biased towards digital -- they make grain worse than they are. Monitors and inkjet printers come to mind.


So u are effectively saying that film's picture quality is still better? The debate rumbles on........... we need an expert...... someone who does R&D for digital camera sensors and film sensitivity, etc....... kekeke....... any lobang anyone? :D
 

nhyone, I do hope you know the size of a photon...I don't believe the engineers will have to worry much about the size of the sensor being smaller than one for a loooong time.

TME: analog audio recordings pick up the intangables, namely things above 18,000 hz or so that effect the listener but cannot be audibly perceived. Film doesn't have that -- what you see is what's there.

The grain structure is indeed random, but on a quality scan you can see them easily enough (on good quality 400 slide film. 100 is a good bit tougher.)

You are correct in stating that some devices show grain differently -- monitors and inkjet printers (and even digital files) represent things as a grid. Grain, which does not fall into said grid also does not look as good when displayed on one. But if you sampe enough, film becomes more and more like digital.

What some people have argued about digital cameras is that they do not reproduce color as well. I don't know about you, but all film is biased one way or another; my elite chrome turns blue if there's too little light, some films are ultra saturated, etc. And when I scan them they look different again, blahblahblah.

Remember, this is photography. It's not how you get there, it's what you finish with. Affordable digital cameras -will- overtake film. It's merely a matter of time. Still like film? It definitely has its advantages (namely: you don't need to worry about memory cards. Just carry around a big bag of film when out in the field.). Do what works for you. I don't see film disappearing anytime soon.

But from a computer engineering standpoint, it's only a matter of time. There will always be people who prefer a certain film for a certain application due to the results -- the same how some people still like vinyl LP records: they say it has a warmer, richer sound. Whatever works.
 

Originally posted by Nightshade
nhyone, I do hope you know the size of a photon...I don't believe the engineers will have to worry much about the size of the sensor being smaller than one for a loooong time.
Not size, but sensitivity and SNR.

Grain, which does not fall into said grid also does not look as good when displayed on one.
I forgot the biggest offender of all: a film scanner!

But from a computer engineering standpoint, it's only a matter of time.
You are always talking about the future. I am talking about now. When the future comes, we'll talk about it then. :D
 

Originally posted by nhyone
I have two hunches: one, grain plays a big part in perceiving a better picture; two, most devices are biased towards digital -- they make grain worse than they are. Monitors and inkjet printers come to mind.
This part should be, grain plays a big part in perceiving a worse picture.
 

Originally posted by nhyone
Not size, but sensitivity and SNR.

I forgot the biggest offender of all: a film scanner!

You are always talking about the future. I am talking about now. When the future comes, we'll talk about it then. :D

How do u actually measure the size of photon? Is the size of the magnitude of wavelength of light?? Are we talking of atomic scales here? If so then only then would u talk about sensors being as small as a photon.....

I'm getting confused but I guess there isn't definitive answer at the moment........ what I'm really interested in is whether there are intangibles that can be recorded on film that a digital photo cannot capture....... Nightshade has said that there are no such intangibles (if I uderstand u correctly)..... anyone else has other comments? I feel that there may be such a concept though altho' I cannot substantiate it........
 

Hey, I've seen results from a 1Ds. It looked better than the same scene shot with low grain ISO 100 (same spot, same time, same glass)

::shrug:: like I said, do what works best for you. If you like working in a color darkroom and get better-than-digital results using film there, awesome. I don't have access to a color darkroom (I do use a black and white one) and am pretty good with Photoshop for post-process. I feel that I would be better off digitizing my shots, running them through Photoshop and such, than having prints made straight off the bat from film, even if they -were- better quality (for I say they'd look better were I able to tweak them a lil bit.)

And, when the "future" is 0-3 years away, who needs to argue? : )
 

Yeah I agree..... whatever works..... but it was just for discussion's sake to find out what the current situation is like in the digital versus analogue divide... :D
 

so,so,so, ...
so, Minolta ,,! quick, quick, D SLR!!
i'm waiting, since day 1!!!
 

Originally posted by leesteven
so,so,so, ...
so, Minolta ,,! quick, quick, D SLR!!
i'm waiting, since day 1!!!

Day 1 ? You mean you've been waiting for a DSLR since Minolta started in 1928 ? :thumbsup: :D
 

Originally posted by reno77
Day 1 ? You mean you've been waiting for a DSLR since Minolta started in 1928 ? :thumbsup: :D

no lah , just kidding,!:D

i got my first minolta SLR in 1988, until now,... almost all other brands got digital SLR. ..,,
quite happy with my nikon Cp5k, at the moment,but only 3x zoom.
i've got a 70-200mm F4 zoom, 50mm 1.7, 10 years ++ year old & still good.
my 7000 body is rotting away, cannot use already..!! got a new body 2 years ago but is film.
So, if got digital SLR, then perfect lah!!
hope that it my super old lens still can fit in the new digital body!!;p
 

Originally posted by leesteven
no lah , just kidding,!:D

i got my first minolta SLR in 1988, until now,... almost all other brands got digital SLR. ..,,
quite happy with my nikon Cp5k, at the moment,but only 3x zoom.
i've got a 70-200mm F4 zoom, 50mm 1.7, 10 years ++ year old & still good.
my 7000 body is rotting away, cannot use already..!! got a new body 2 years ago but is film.
So, if got digital SLR, then perfect lah!!
hope that it my super old lens still can fit in the new digital body!!;p

Adopt a wait and see tactic!

I'm also in the wait for a Minolta D-SLR, but it all depends on what Minolta is able to dish out to the consumers and professionals alike. I like what they've done so far with the new DYNAX 5, DYNAX 7 and DYNAX 9 series of film SLRs. There's potential here if they're able to produce such capable film SLRs. Wait for them to fix any bugs in the software or hardware of the new D-SLR before deciding to take the plunge.

It appears that ours is a small country, therefore contributing little to the Minolta user base here.

I do understand that there are quite a number of Minolta system users in Japan and Australia alike.

As I've said. The wait continues.;)
 

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