How to use slow sync on Dynax 5? + Film qn

[alvin]

Hi!
How does the Slow Sync button work on the Dynax 5? I am using A mode, flash is mounted and switched on. When I half press it shows me F4/125. But when I engage the slow sync button it seems to be working as the spot meter button i.e. shows me F4/4 (super slow shutter!) The manual says if the flash is enabled it should be slow sync, did i get it wrong? I'm usually using manual for flash, will slow sync will be better?

Finally, I'm going to be shooting Press 800 with flash on Monday (class outing yipee!). I'm usually using 400 film e.g. Superior or Max Versatility, wide open at 1/30, TTL flash, with great results. I don't need to change any setting if I change the film to a faster ISO since it's TTL right?

I'm really appreciating this camera, now my 717 is really gonna take a back seat

Thanks!

Regards,
Alvin

 

[Zerstorer]

Hi!
How does the Slow Sync button work on the Dynax 5? I am using A mode, flash is mounted and switched on. When I half press it shows me F4/125. But when I engage the slow sync button it seems to be working as the spot meter button i.e. shows me F4/4 (super slow shutter!) The manual says if the flash is enabled it should be slow sync, did it get it wrong?

Nope, but you got to get the proper understanding of what is slow sync flash. Slow sync flash essentially fires the flash at the same shutter speed as a proper exposure without flash in the current ambient condition.

Finally, I'm going to be shooting Press 800 with flash on Monday (class outing yipee!). I'm usually using 400 film e.g. Superior or Max Versatility, wide open at 1/30, TTL flash, with great results. I don't need to change any setting if I change the film to a faster ISO since it's TTL right?

It's not because of TTL but coz the camera recognizes DX coding and will recognize the film type that's loaded, unless u delibrately override the settings.

 

[alvin]

Hi!
With slow sync the camera meters the scene for non-flash usage BUT fires the flash. Is that right? So the camera is correct then... Which means with slow sync i'm gonna need some tripod....

Ok so the camera recognizes the film speed, but then I don't need to change any setting right? Been using only iso 400 film with flash, so kinda concerned changing to 800 film on Monday. Qn: Since the film speed is now higher, hence need less light, the flash, will fire lesser light at the scene right?

Thanks!

~Alvin

 

[Zerstorer]

Hi!
With slow sync the camera meters the scene for non-flash usage BUT fires the flash. Is that right? So the camera is correct then... Which means with slow sync i'm gonna need some tripod....

Depends on how much ambient light there is, how still are your subjects and how steady are your hands.

Slow sync mode is used when you want to capture the ambience of a low light area and yet still want to use flash to illuminate the subject. Single digit shutter speeds (1/6, 1/10) are still manageable or even up to 1sec if nothing is moving.

Ok so the camera recognizes the film speed, but then I don't need to change any setting right? Been using only iso 400 film with flash, so kinda concerned changing to 800 film on Monday. Qn: Since the film speed is now higher, hence need less light, the flash, will fire lesser light at the scene right?

Thanks!

~Alvin

Yep, the camera will handle everything.

 

[alvin]

Ok one last question. How does it differ from manual mode?

I've never tried slow sync, relying on varying apertures (bokeh type required) + 1/30s shutter + ttl flash. So if the slow sync meters e.g. F4, 1/4 and I set manual mode to F4, 1/4, flash in ttl mode, will it be the same?

Thanks!

~Alvin

 

[TME]

Ok one last question. How does it differ from manual mode?

I've never tried slow sync, relying on varying apertures (bokeh type required) + 1/30s shutter + ttl flash. So if the slow sync meters e.g. F4, 1/4 and I set manual mode to F4, 1/4, flash in ttl mode, will it be the same?

Thanks!

~Alvin

I'm also quite a novice but I think there is a difference. In slow sync the flash fires even though u set the camera to meter without the flash. But the flash in slow sync fires after the shutter opens. If u set the camera manually and then fire the flash TTL, I think u might overexpose the subject since the flash fires at the same time as the shutter opens?

I'm not sure but this is what I think should happen based on what I read from the manual of my Dynax 7.

 

[alvin]

Oh dear.... I didn't test the slow sync today. No chance to use the tripod. I fired all my flash shots at 1/30 wide open.... really wish to know what's the diff. So far so good with my dynax 5 + metz 32Mz2. Just fire and forget, the only problems I have are usually my own (e.g. never switch on the flash....)

 

[TME]

Oh dear.... I didn't test the slow sync today. No chance to use the tripod. I fired all my flash shots at 1/30 wide open.... really wish to know what's the diff. So far so good with my dynax 5 + metz 32Mz2. Just fire and forget, the only problems I have are usually my own (e.g. never switch on the flash....)

Actually when u shoot in bright sunlight with the light coming from behind your subject, u really need high speed sync....... I found that out the hard way......

 

[alvin]

Hi TME! Why is that so? I can't say anything about my dynax 5, never experimented much backlit stuff with it but on my digicam i'm using the same metz flash, in automatic mode (camera no ttl), and get ok results. I had to spot meter the background first, AE lock, then recompose and fire...

 

[Gunjack]

Its becoz for strong backlit conditions, the ambient light is much brighter than the subject, and in order to expose the brighter background properly, you typically need a shuttle speed of more than the dynax 5 built in flash of 1/125s. That means that the background will be burnt out, if that is the effect u want. And u won't be able to use big aperture to get bokeh effect in the bright sunlight using flash.

 

[Zerstorer]

Hi TME! Why is that so? I can't say anything about my dynax 5, never experimented much backlit stuff with it but on my digicam i'm using the same metz flash, in automatic mode (camera no ttl), and get ok results. I had to spot meter the background first, AE lock, then recompose and fire...

Digicams can sync at any shutter speed with the flash, so you won't run into the limitation that TME experienced with an SLR.

Try your Dynax 5 on a nice bright sunny day with a backlit subject and attempt to use fill flash on the subject while not blowing the background too much. You will see the camera 'protest.'

 

[forbytes]

Hi TME! Why is that so? I can't say anything about my dynax 5, never experimented much backlit stuff with it but on my digicam i'm using the same metz flash, in automatic mode (camera no ttl), and get ok results. I had to spot meter the background first, AE lock, then recompose and fire...

If you are shooting a stong back light and the subject face is real black, a fill flash as mentioned by alvin will be good. the fill flash will illuminate the face and remove the shadow casted by the back light. metering should be done on the face or some other object that is available in the shaded region and not the back light. If metering is done on the back light, the back light will be "correctly" exposed as determined by the camera "P" mode and neglect the exposure of the subject and the subject turns out real black.

if you use fill in flash on the subject (assuming you did the metering on the face) and switch on the slow sync, the shuttle speed slows down. True, more "ambient" light from the bright back light will enter into the shutter curtain. the result will be a over exposed background with the subject still in correct exposure.

Remember that flash comes in a "flash". It comes fast and goes fast. in slow sync, the flash would have gone by 1/125 sec and the subject will be left unilluminated. more background ambient light is capture in the process in the remaining exposure time without affecting the exposure of the subject to a great extent. hence, you will have a balance exposure picture.

 

[alvin]

I don't really understand... anyway I did a write up on how to properly expose a backlit subject with my sony P9 digicam. Is this the right way? I've been doing this all along with no problems...

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~jtalbain/eventsArticles/sonydscp9.html

You can see with the last pic even with the crappy built in flash the frame is exposed adequately. If I swap to my 717 + metz it's even better, probably due to the higher GN of the metz.

 

[TME]

Digicams can sync at any shutter speed with the flash, so you won't run into the limitation that TME experienced with an SLR.

Try your Dynax 5 on a nice bright sunny day with a backlit subject and attempt to use fill flash on the subject while not blowing the background too much. You will see the camera 'protest.'

Yupez!! It's fantastically irritating when u are trying to reduce the depth of field but the camera protests like siaoz....... cos your shutter speed is like 1/500 or higher but your highest sync speed is like 1/125...... and if u use shutter priority and force fire, u find that it's as good as not using flash cos your subject's face is still underexposed..... just trying spot metering and then try to shoot...... can make u want to throw the cam on the floor!

The thing is that if your shutter speed is at 1/500 or faster, and the maximum flash-to-shutter sync is at 1/125, after the shutter has open and closed, the flash may not even have fired...... i.e. the shutter fires faster than the flash such that the light that bounces off the subject(from the flash burst) and onto the film plane hits the film plane after the shutter has closed..... so in effect u have shot without flash since the flash burst did not reach the film before the shutter closes........

I'm dun know digicams dun have this problem...... someone care to elaborate? Is this confined to prosumer type digicams or even teh cheapo 1-2MP digicams dun have syncing problems? Zerstorer, please? Drum roll.............

 

[Zerstorer]

I'm dun know digicams dun have this problem...... someone care to elaborate? Is this confined to prosumer type digicams or even teh cheapo 1-2MP digicams dun have syncing problems? Zerstorer, please? Drum roll.............

Basically, only focal plane shutters in SLRs have this limitation. Cameras that use leaf shutters(most TLRs) and digital cameras that electronically control the CCD/CMOS can sync with the flash at any valid shutter speed.

For example I can sync my flash on my Fuji S602 at 1/10000 without problems.

 

[Zerstorer]

If you are shooting a stong back light and the subject face is real black, a fill flash as mentioned by alvin will be good. the fill flash will illuminate the face and remove the shadow casted by the back light. metering should be done on the face or some other object that is available in the shaded region and not the back light. If metering is done on the back light, the back light will be "correctly" exposed as determined by the camera "P" mode and neglect the exposure of the subject and the subject turns out real black.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's the way it should be done. To avoid blowing the background, metering should be performed on the background and then the shot should be recomposed with the face included. When the shot is taken with flash(at a valid flash sync speed) the TTL control of the flash will take care of the exposure for the face without regard to what the ambient exposure settings are.

 

[forbytes]

To avoid blowing the background, metering should be performed on the background and then the shot should be recomposed with the face included.

my statement on "If metering is done on the back light, the back light will be "correctly" exposed as determined by the camera" is in parallel with the above statement.

When the shot is taken with flash(at a valid flash sync speed) the TTL control of the flash will take care of the exposure for the face without regard to what the ambient exposure settings are.

The flash will provide the power to illuminate the backlight if metering is done there instead of the subject. In this case (you meter the back light and recompose instead of leaving the subject in the middle), the power of the flash will typically be high to achieve the correct exposure due to the far distance. The subject distance to the camera will be the governing criteria as to whether the subject will be correctly exposed.
If standing too close the subject will still be wash out. Too far the subject will be underexposed. It is tricky as to why sometimes the subject is over, correct or under exposed. subject distance matters. so my previous message with regards to "subject turns out real black." is incorrect but the camera does neglect the exposure of the subject.

If metering is done on subject and no recomposition, metering anything but not spot, the TTL with slow sync may not reduce the shutter speed. of coz if the aperture is open too big shutter speed may not reduced if you are operating near to the end of the max shutter speed. overexposure of back light is highly likely. No offence Zerstorer, I believe all of us is trying to learn.

 

[Zerstorer]

The flash will provide the power to illuminate the backlight if metering is done there instead of the subject. In this case (you meter the back light and recompose instead of leaving the subject in the middle), the power of the flash will typically be high to achieve the correct exposure due to the far distance. The subject distance to the camera will be the governing criteria as to whether the subject will be correctly exposed.
If standing too close the subject will still be wash out. Too far the subject will be underexposed. It is tricky as to why sometimes the subject is over, correct or under exposed. subject distance matters. so my previous message with regards to "subject turns out real black." is incorrect but the camera does neglect the exposure of the subject.

Hmm, this is where I disagree. Although the metering was derived from the background, flash exposure will still be correct as it is under TTL control, the flash output will be squelched the moment proper exposure is detected at the film plane, this is what TTL should be and it will work well as long as the subject is reasonably dominant in the frame. With ADI and D distance technology available to both Minolta and Nikon bodies, the flash further takes the focal distance into account and only takes into account the TTL sensors in the region of the focused subject into consideration and hence gives better TTL control.

If metering is done on subject and no recomposition, metering anything but not spot, the TTL with slow sync may not reduce the shutter speed. of coz if the aperture is open too big shutter speed may not reduced if you are operating near to the end of the max shutter speed. overexposure of back light is highly likely.

Actually we are no longer talking about slow sync in this case. The discussion at this juncture was on the max x-sync limitations of cheaper SLR body/flash combos without highspeed sync capability for fill flash portraits in bright sunlight. In any case, I believe Alvin's Dynax 5 has HSS capability so all he needs is a compatible flash to overcome it.

No offence Zerstorer, I believe all of us is trying to learn.

None taken at all.

 

[forbytes]

Hmm, this is where I disagree. Although the metering was derived from the background, flash exposure will still be correct as it is under TTL control, the flash output will be squelched the moment proper exposure is detected at the film plane, this is what TTL should be and it will work well as long as the subject is reasonably dominant in the frame. With ADI and D distance technology available to both Minolta and Nikon bodies, the flash further takes the focal distance into account and only takes into account the TTL sensors in the region of the focused subject into consideration and hence gives better TTL control.

I totally agree with the point that ADI and D accounts for the distance and the flash cuts of when the "subject" gets the right exposure.
to clarify, when you take a metering on the back light, what is the subject for exposure? If you meter the back light and later shift to recompose and release the shutter, what is the subject. metering on different things should mean different subjects right.

Yes, I agree that you press AE lock and later recompose the subject, you focus on the new subject but the AE is not that. Remember that in certain situations, a center weighted metering may be unable to account for the exposure of the "real" subject you are going to take when you shift. there is a change in subject. this case, distance of the focus subject and the distance of the exposure subject matters.

Of coz this problem does not exist or minimised when the difference in distance between the real subject and the exposure subject is very close.

 

[Zerstorer]

Yes, I agree that you press AE lock and later recompose the subject, you focus on the new subject but the AE is not that.

That's precisely what is intended, the ambient exposure should be AE-locked on the background.

Remember that in certain situations, a center weighted metering may be unable to account for the exposure of the "real" subject you are going to take when you shift, there is a change in subject. this case, distance of the focus subject and the distance of the exposure subject matters.

Let's see this in 2 parts. Camera is metered for background (shutter/aperture is set for correct exposure of background).

Point of focus is however on a person and this subject fills a considerable portion of the frame.(more than a 1/3). The camera then attempts to allocated a greater weightage of flash output control to the TTL sensor that is near the object at point of focus.

When the flash fires, the flash exposure is adjusted only for light that is reflected from the film plane onto the TTL sensor and typically, the one that receives the most light will be given highest priority to avoid blowout. Distance of subject to background is not an issue here, the more important thing is distance of subject to camera.

Under these circumstances, bearing in mind that shutter speeds are already rather high and that FPsync(greatly reduces usable guide number) is being used, there is very little chance of overexposure.

In any case, a normal camera with an autoflash works perfectly using the above method for daylight fill flash(-1ev). So I think there isn't much chance for a TTL based system to misbehave too badly.