dpreview: M9

[gommy]

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/leicam9/

 

[NorthernLights]

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/leicam9/

At 4,850 pounds with VAT, it will be > $10K in Singapore. :bigeyes: If I don't earn a living from photography, I will not buy this now. If I earn a living from photography and shoot FF, I will buy a Nikon D3, D700 or Canon 1Dsmk3, 5Dmk2.

But Leica has taken care of M8 market to price the M9 at slightly less than double that of M8 and at least 30% more than M8.2.

But IMHO, M8.2 users will suffer the most being priced just 30% lower. I really thought that the 1.3x crop will stay with the M8.2 and there is an upgrade path somehow. The M8.2 got no UV/IR issue resolved, just sapphire glass LCD display protection and a quieter shutter and a diff coloured logo. Now I really think Leica did the M8.2 to sell more M8's to recover M9 R&D.

M9: The noise at ISO 800 is also not up to competition against the D3x, 1dsmk3 or 5D mk 1 and mk2. The latter cameras shooting ISO expandable to 25,600.

Firstly, don't think I will spend $10K on a digital camera. If I want FF, I will get a D700 or 5D, looking at how a 1ds drops from $14k to $1.3k today.

 

[Cactus jACK]

At 4,850 pounds with VAT, it will be > $10K in Singapore. :bigeyes: If I don't earn a living from photography, I will not buy this now. If I earn a living from photography and shoot FF, I will buy a Nikon D3, D700 or Canon 1Dsmk3, 5Dmk2.

But Leica has taken care of M8 market to price the M9 at slightly less than double that of M8 and at least 30% more than M8.2.

But IMHO, M8.2 users will suffer the most being priced just 30% lower. I really thought that the 1.3x crop will stay with the M8.2 and there is an upgrade path somehow. The M8.2 got no UV/IR issue resolved, just sapphire glass LCD display protection and a quieter shutter and a diff coloured logo. Now I really think Leica did the M8.2 to sell more M8's to recover M9 R&D.

M9: The noise at ISO 800 is also not up to competition against the D3x, 1dsmk3 or 5D mk 1 and mk2. The latter cameras shooting ISO expandable to 25,600.

Firstly, don't think I will spend $10K on a digital camera. If I want FF, I will get a D700 or 5D, looking at how a 1ds drops from $14k to $1.3k today.

frankly, i would have hoped for better noise control more than anything else. usually, one would associate that with FF, assuming larger light capturing diodes rather than the same pixel density, just more pixels.

for shoots that require me to increase ISO to more than 640, without flash, i would use either the 5d or d700.

for the m8 and m8.2, hopefully they upgrade the firmware to include the manual lens selection.

 

[falterego]

At 4,850 pounds with VAT, it will be > $10K in Singapore. :bigeyes: If I don't earn a living from photography, I will not buy this now. If I earn a living from photography and shoot FF, I will buy a Nikon D3, D700 or Canon 1Dsmk3, 5Dmk2.

But Leica has taken care of M8 market to price the M9 at slightly less than double that of M8 and at least 30% more than M8.2.

But IMHO, M8.2 users will suffer the most being priced just 30% lower. I really thought that the 1.3x crop will stay with the M8.2 and there is an upgrade path somehow. The M8.2 got no UV/IR issue resolved, just sapphire glass LCD display protection and a quieter shutter and a diff coloured logo. Now I really think Leica did the M8.2 to sell more M8's to recover M9 R&D.

M9: The noise at ISO 800 is also not up to competition against the D3x, 1dsmk3 or 5D mk 1 and mk2. The latter cameras shooting ISO expandable to 25,600.

Firstly, don't think I will spend $10K on a digital camera. If I want FF, I will get a D700 or 5D, looking at how a 1ds drops from $14k to $1.3k today.

You do know that you're comparing a handmade premium material smallest FF camera in existence with a mass produced mainly plastic Japanese gadget, don't you?

 

[paisatge]

for the m8 and m8.2, hopefully they upgrade the firmware to include the manual lens selection.

Wonder if they'll bother. It's definitely a plus for m8/2

 

[falterego]

for shoots that require me to increase ISO to more than 640, without flash, i would use either the 5d or d700.

Yes, if you just want to get a shot. For more than that, consider moving to a Summilux/Noctilux instead of a 5D or D700.

for the m8 and m8.2, hopefully they upgrade the firmware to include the manual lens selection.

I doubt that will happen. It'll suddenly increase the value/desirability of all non-Leica M-mount lenses.

[Edit: I stand corrected; apparently an Erwin Puts review has indicated that manual lens selection is available on the M9]

 

[nicky]

I think some Leica fans just hacked the DPReview site. Look at the DPR logo !

 

[jimbo12345]

I think some Leica fans just hacked the DPReview site. Look at the DPR logo !

Don't think it's hacked. think dpreview is celebrating the 'moment' with the introduction of M9. :bsmilie:

 

[CooperS]

I couldn't even get into Leica's website tonight. Ridiculous.

Anywhere else can I see the launch?

 

[nicky]

Now the DPR logo is back to normal. Good thing I captured a screenshot

 

[NorthernLights]

You do know that you're comparing a handmade premium material smallest FF camera in existence with a mass produced mainly plastic Japanese gadget, don't you?

Nikon D3 and Canon 1-series are made of die-cast metal alloy with environmental rubber seals. They are no doubt machine made but in terms of digital technology maturity, durability are still way ahead. Look at the number of custom controls.

I moved to DRF from DSLR because I shoot less now (stopped assignments) and mainly when I travel but I like digital. Hence, travelling light whilst maintaining photo quality ansd manual modes is impt to me, hence digital RF and not compacts.

However, really, from a price over usefulness index, price over versatility (ability to shoot anything, incl birding, ability to shoot at ISO's 12800, 25600) situation is getting worse and divide wider still.

 

[NorthernLights]

Yes, if you just want to get a shot. For more than that, consider moving to a Summilux/Noctilux instead of a 5D or D700.



I doubt that will happen. It'll suddenly increase the value/desirability of all non-Leica M-mount lenses.

For the low light shot, use a D700 and shoot at ISO 12800 with a 50 f1.4D @ f1.4. That is many many stops more than an M8 ISO 800 shot with a 50 f1.0.

Same with Canon, 5Dmk2 at ISO 12800 using EF 50 f1.2L @ f1.2. wins handsdown.

 

[Red Dawn]

At 4,850 pounds with VAT, it will be > $10K in Singapore. :bigeyes: If I don't earn a living from photography, I will not buy this now. If I earn a living from photography and shoot FF, I will buy a Nikon D3, D700 or Canon 1Dsmk3, 5Dmk2.

But Leica has taken care of M8 market to price the M9 at slightly less than double that of M8 and at least 30% more than M8.2.

But IMHO, M8.2 users will suffer the most being priced just 30% lower. I really thought that the 1.3x crop will stay with the M8.2 and there is an upgrade path somehow. The M8.2 got no UV/IR issue resolved, just sapphire glass LCD display protection and a quieter shutter and a diff coloured logo. Now I really think Leica did the M8.2 to sell more M8's to recover M9 R&D.

M9: The noise at ISO 800 is also not up to competition against the D3x, 1dsmk3 or 5D mk 1 and mk2. The latter cameras shooting ISO expandable to 25,600.

Firstly, don't think I will spend $10K on a digital camera. If I want FF, I will get a D700 or 5D, looking at how a 1ds drops from $14k to $1.3k today.

Hopefully the price can be kept under 10k SGD.... at USD $6995 or thereabouts, it's just slightly under 10

I watched the webcast live, and I am still reeling from the shock (even with all the leaks) of seeing a full frame M within 3 years of the original blotched M8. I had high expectations for the M8, but the many problems with it eventually led to me to drop the idea of getting one. Tonight as I watched the webcast, I can sense the optimism in the launch, and am quietly hoping that the M9 will truly be relatively problem free....

Assuming the following...

- No need for IR cut filters, which really, was an afterthought. Why else would Leica NOT include the use of it in ANY of its literature at the launch of the M8? And why would the WATE not allow the use of any filter?

- no weird artifacts

- hopefully more reliable, no card errors, battery shutdowns, no need to constantly reboot..

- no need for lens coding, thus opening up a whole world of third party lenses

.... and at 18MP, full frame, this is likely the last M anyone will ever need for a long long time, fulfilling the "camera for life" promise of Leica I have the D700 and I make money off it - it's a real problem free workhorse - and I use ISO 6400 regularly with fast wide primes mainly. Maybe TOO perfect. Definitely not err...... sexy

Since i mainly use my D700 like how I use my film Ms - from focal length 24/28 to 85mm, with only primes, the M9 will suit me perfectly. And it will truly be the last camera I will ever buy.

At least, that's how I am trying to convince my wife haha!

 

[NorthernLights]

Hopefully the price can be kept under 10k SGD.... at USD $6995 or thereabouts, it's just slightly under 10

I watched the webcast live, and I am still reeling from the shock (even with all the leaks) of seeing a full frame M within 3 years of the original blotched M8. I had high expectations for the M8, but the many problems with it eventually led to me to drop the idea of getting one. Tonight as I watched the webcast, I can sense the optimism in the launch, and am quietly hoping that the M9 will truly be relatively problem free....

Assuming the following...

- No need for IR cut filters, which really, was an afterthought. Why else would Leica NOT include the use of it in ANY of its literature at the launch of the M8? And why would the WATE not allow the use of any filter?

- no weird artifacts

- hopefully more reliable, no card errors, battery shutdowns, no need to constantly reboot..

- no need for lens coding, thus opening up a whole world of third party lenses

.... and at 18MP, full frame, this is likely the last M anyone will ever need for a long long time, fulfilling the "camera for life" promise of Leica I have the D700 and I make money off it - it's a real problem free workhorse - and I use ISO 6400 regularly with fast wide primes mainly. Maybe TOO perfect. Definitely not err...... sexy

Since i mainly use my D700 like how I use my film Ms - from focal length 24/28 to 85mm, with only primes, the M9 will suit me perfectly. And it will truly be the last camera I will ever buy.

At least, that's how I am trying to convince my wife haha!

We always tell that lie. Prob is grass will always be greener. When the M11 comes around with the ability to shoot ISO 51200, environmental sealing, 8fps, custom modes to record personal settings for each lens, maybe even autofocus driven from the body, M11 will be the 'last' cam again. :bsmilie: Digital is improvements.

 

[falterego]

Nikon D3 and Canon 1-series are made of die-cast metal alloy with environmental rubber seals. They are no doubt machine made but in terms of digital technology maturity, durability are still way ahead. Look at the number of custom controls.

I moved to DRF from DSLR because I shoot less now (stopped assignments) and mainly when I travel but I like digital. Hence, travelling light whilst maintaining photo quality ansd manual modes is impt to me, hence digital RF and not compacts.

However, really, from a price over usefulness index, price over versatility (ability to shoot anything, incl birding, ability to shoot at ISO's 12800, 25600) situation is getting worse and divide wider still.

If you are implying that the D3 and 1-series are of the same make quality of an M9, sorry, but you gotta be kidding. And you cannot seriously be comparing the number of custom controls on Nikon/Canon DSLRs to how Leica was able to incorporate an FF sensor into the form factor of an M9.

I too move from DSLR to DRF. But instead of finding the divides that you claim, I am thrilled by being reminded that photography is not all about the product (the photo), but also the process (capturing the moment) that was absent when shooting with DSLRs.

 

[falterego]

For the low light shot, use a D700 and shoot at ISO 12800 with a 50 f1.4D @ f1.4. That is many many stops more than an M8 ISO 800 shot with a 50 f1.0.

Same with Canon, 5Dmk2 at ISO 12800 using EF 50 f1.2L @ f1.2. wins handsdown.

I bought a D700 when it was launched. The time that I had it, I looked at it more than touched it, let alone make pictures with it. When I didn't even like looking at it any more, around 8 weeks on, I sold it. Nothing against the camera, it's wonderful, but it's not for me. And if I'd still had it, trust me, I'd rather shoot at grainy ISO 1250 at f/1.4 on my M8, or even with my half dozen photo apps on my iPhone, and have a heck of a lot more fun. I can't explain it. The process of photography and not the product, I guess.

 

[xylestesins]

It's the age old debate of cost vs red dot.
Hasn't the prices for Leicas always been like that since.. forever?


No but seriously, initial predictions (as seen on RFF) were that the M9 would be priced at roughly $7500-9000USD. It already is a pleasant surprise to have it at $7k USD.
Not that i'll be getting one soon.

 

[Kit]

I bought a D700 when it was launched. The time that I had it, I looked at it more than touched it, let alone make pictures with it. When I didn't even like looking at it any more, around 8 weeks on, I sold it. Nothing against the camera, it's wonderful, but it's not for me. And if I'd still had it, trust me, I'd rather shoot at grainy ISO 1250 at f/1.4 on my M8, or even with my half dozen photo apps on my iPhone, and have a heck of a lot more fun. I can't explain it. The process of photography and not the product, I guess.

Somewhere, somehow, you confused process of photography with equipment wankering.....

 

[GoodLens]

...And if I'd still had it, trust me, I'd rather shoot at grainy ISO 1250 at f/1.4 on my M8, or even with my half dozen photo apps on my iPhone, and have a heck of a lot more fun. I can't explain it. The process of photography and not the product, I guess.

Taking grainy shots & having excessive noise in the pictures imo are quite 2 different things altogether. Most photographers wont mind grains but noise are more distracting I think.

I am also one who thought that with that kind of price & FF, M9 should do much better than M8 in ISO performance above 640, but a bit disappointed that it only does a stop better than M8. Everyone was hoping M9 can be the ultimate low light machine at FF, if M9 can produce ISO 6400 like D700 they can really charge what they like.

Even if one doesn't compare M9 with D700/D3/5DII, a bigger improvement in ISO performance from M8 is expected given the potential of the sensor size. Who wants 18mp files with a lot of noise?

If ISO performance is not much better than M8, M9 sales may go slow...just hope that Leica is not killing itself....

 

[night86mare]

Taking grainy shots & having excessive noise in the pictures imo are quite 2 different things altogether. Most photographers wont mind grains but noise are more distracting I think.

noise is the same as grain in digital.

just because it's a leica doesn't mean that the noise on the sensor becomes grain and not noise.... :sticktong:sticktong