Basic Videography - Follow-up Q&A + Discussion

[kandinsky]

Hi folks,

As I mentioned, here's the follow-up thread for Q&A or any other discussion if you're interested in pressing that red button. Thanks wonglp & Simon for the invitation and opportunity to share a bit about a basic introduction to video for still photographers. Thanks to spidey89 for the tech/PA suport. Thanks too to everyone who dropped by, hope everyone managed to get something useful from the session.

There's only that much we could skim through in an hour, hope it provided enough information for you to start your own exploration. I wish I could have shown more examples, but video examples take too much time to shoot sometimes. Plus there's usually something already on youtube.

Like I mentioned, I don't consider myself an expert. I'm still learning new stuff all the time. Still have lots to learn about audio/light for example. So it's good we have a resource like CS, where we can learn from each other. Hope the more experienced video folks here can chime in to answer your questions that are beyond me.

Let's see how things go. If some of the questions are more complex are require a separate thread, we can pull them out into their own thread for better discussion.

 

[kandinsky]

One question I'm not sure I answered correctly was this:

What's the best way to get the audio feed from mixer to camera (Panny G6) when shooting an event/conference in order to avoid syncing in post? Mobility not an issue as this is for the stage static shot, and user has a H4n.

My suggestion like this: [Mixer aux out] > [XLR] > [H4n] > [Camera]

If I recall correctly, user was asking if this was feasible: [Mixer aux out] > [XLR] > [XLR to 3.5mm adapter] > [Camera]

 

[RyanKhoo]

Just to make sure that the answers to my questions were recorded here for the benefit of others who may have the same questions:

Q: When you record the slow-mo using GH4 in 96fps, what settings did you used
A: Movie mode, shutter priority, shutter at 1/200

Q: When you use the GH4 to record in 50p, do you set your camera to Shutter Priority and shutter speed to 1/100 ?
A: Yes

Cheers

 

[RyanKhoo]

Hi kandinsky, I arrived at your talk 15 mins late, so I missed out the earlier part.

Any chance that we can have access to the slides ?

Thanks

 

[RyanKhoo]

This is a question specific to GH4.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I was told (cannot remember who told me, maybe I remembered wrongly too) that the shutter speed in GH4 is already automatically set to twice the frame rate.

That means if we select to record in 25p, the shutter speed is auto set to 1/50

and if we select to record in 50p, the shutter speed is auto set to 1/100.

That being the case, that means there is no need to use shutter priority in movie mode. And we can use Aperture priority to control the dof in the movie mode ... but my experience was bad. I once recorded a video at Bird Park using Aperture priority mode, there was no floresence light and yet the video was flickering ... so the notion of the GH4 auto set the shutter speed to twice the frame rate may not be correct after all ?

I am confused ... can someone be kind enuf to shed some light to this ...

Thank you very much ...

 

[ywh]

RyanKhoo,

I was there today for the talk as well and thanks to Kandinsky for the sharing. That said, I am one amongst many who DO NOT shoot video in any of the semi-auto modes. The reason being the abrupt change in exposure while recording will result in either an amateurish look or an unusable clip. To illustrate this, just point your phone camera at a light source then pan/tilt down to a subject away from the light. Notice how the exposure changes? We do iris pulls in the industry but not quickly which is what auto exposure does. Slowly turning a variable ND filter is also the way to go and is a common technique for those shooting with shallow DOF outdoors.

With regards to flickering, it has all to do with the selected shutter speed. In PAL land where the electric current is at 50hz, you will want your shutter speed to be either 50 or 100 (100 is the fastest I will go without getting too choppy a clip). Of course using a fast shutter speed will result in choppy video like what Kadinsky has shown on his slides. That said, while shooting in SG, it is important to set your framerate to either 25 or 50 (most DSLRs will not go above 50P) then on manual mode, use a shutter speed of 1/50sec (or 1/100sec if you are shooting 50P), choose an aperture for your choice of depth of field and bring the ISO to one that gives you a good exposure. If all is still too bright then bring in the variable nd filters.

For flickering, you will usually avoid it at 1/50 sec or a divisible of 50. BUT I have experienced slight flicker with that setting at a few places and the best way is to actually use the "zoom" function during Liveview and check any smooth surface such as a wall for flicker. If there is none, just "zoom" out and start rolling.

I know nothing about the GH4 or GH3 so can't help you with that.

 

[kandinsky]

Hi kandinsky, I arrived at your talk 15 mins late, so I missed out the earlier part.

Hmm, I don't think you missed much, after self-intro, I showed two clips, and was giving a brief overview of menu selection: Resolution, bitrate, file format, framerate, at around 15min mark, should be the framerate discussion already?

 

[kandinsky]

This is a question specific to GH4.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I was told (cannot remember who told me, maybe I remembered wrongly too) that the shutter speed in GH4 is already automatically set to twice the frame rate.

That being the case, that means there is no need to use shutter priority in movie mode. And we can use Aperture priority to control the dof in the movie mode ... but my experience was bad. I once recorded a video at Bird Park using Aperture priority mode, there was no floresence light and yet the video was flickering ... so the notion of the GH4 auto set the shutter speed to twice the frame rate may not be correct after all ?

I am confused ... can someone be kind enuf to shed some light to this ...

Thank you very much ...

Hmm... No matter what, you can't cheat the exposure triangle... it's physics. I would think it's true to a certain extent. It makes sense for Aperture priority in video mode to set the 'standard' shutter speed in relation to framerate, but only as far as the given exposure allows. The moment you open up your aperture in bright sunlight doesn't mean an ND filter magically appears right?

My guess is that what you did forced the camera to vary the shutter speed to compensate for the exposure, causing the flickering. It's one reason why the auto modes are merely a suggested starting point, they fail sometimes. You're letting the camera make decisions on your behalf. If you want to do things the camera AI can't do for you, maybe it's time for you to start going to M.

 

[wonglp]

Camping here coz I'm a video noob and missed the whole session and good initiative to continue here for benefit of the rest!

 

[kandinsky]

There was a question about hiding lav mics for the video with the basketball scene. The talents for that particular shoot were all going to be wearing t-shirts. Before this I'd only really used lavs with people wearing collars/shirts. So I was cracking my head on how to do it without the lav being visible. I think I was direct to this video via a forum posting somewhere, someone mentioned that he used this technique for a short narrative piece where the talents wore t-shirts.

Check out 4:05 (for the samosa folding) and 9:00 (for the t-shirt tip) in the video.

[video=youtube;D85HmR825wM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D85HmR825wM[/video]
via http://nofilmschool.com/2014/10/7-great-techniques-hiding-lav-microphones

Also described here: http://www.jimpowell.com/Lavaliere.htm

 

[Bamboopictures]

One question I'm not sure I answered correctly was this:

What's the best way to get the audio feed from mixer to camera (Panny G6) when shooting an event/conference in order to avoid syncing in post? Mobility not an issue as this is for the stage static shot, and user has a H4n.

My suggestion like this: [Mixer aux out] > [XLR] > [H4n] > [Camera]

If I recall correctly, user was asking if this was feasible: [Mixer aux out] > [XLR] > [XLR to 3.5mm adapter] > [Camera]

For G6 or any camera that does not have earphone, monitoring via upstream recorder is the best alternative. What is monitoted is what is recorded in the H4N. As for what goes into the camera, it's tikam-tikam. Lucky if it's clean, if not at least you have the H4N. Even then, synch can sometimes drift. Since H4N only has one 3.5mm output, the port needs to be split between camera recording and headphone monitoring. This gives rise to a few problems:
-The output volume from H4N that is suitable for the camera may not be comfortable for monitoring. (headphone preamp is required)
-Using a splitter introduces one more potential fault point.
-some cameras don't even have a visual indicator of the recording volume, making headphone monitoring quite useless.

A Line-to-mic attenuator just before the camera or a beachtek/juicedlink adapter with line/mic selector is recommended for cameras with only 3.5mm input. Blaanced XLR cable should cover most of the distance between the mixer and the adapter/attentuator leaving only the last few centimeters after the adapter/attenuator as an unbalanced output.
Again, for cameras with no earphone port, the juicedlink/beachtek adapter is the only way to monitor although there is no back up recording and there is no guarantee against bad recording within the camera. Factors that can mar your recording even if you use an XLR adapter:
1. forgot to plug adapter to camera (sounds perfectly fine from the adapter!)
2. camera volume setting is too high/low (ditto)
3. Agressive AGC that cannot be disabled by the camera/adapter (ditto)
4. Faulty jack/cable causing drop-outs, crackling. (ditto)
5. Ground loop/hum from AC powered adapter
6. Adapter power dies

 

[pettypoh]

thanks kandinsky and clubsnap for the talk, good information ... hopefully next time got intermediate level as well, then can slowly learn bit by bit =)

 

[Deunamist]

There was a question about hiding lav mics for the video with the basketball scene. The talents for that particular shoot were all going to be wearing t-shirts. Before this I'd only really used lavs with people wearing collars/shirts. So I was cracking my head on how to do it without the lav being visible. I think I was direct to this video via a forum posting somewhere, someone mentioned that he used this technique for a short narrative piece where the talents wore t-shirts.

Check out 4:05 (for the samosa folding) and 9:00 (for the t-shirt tip) in the video.

[video=youtube;D85HmR825wM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D85HmR825wM[/video]
via http://nofilmschool.com/2014/10/7-great-techniques-hiding-lav-microphones

Also described here: http://www.jimpowell.com/Lavaliere.htm

the rodemics invisilav is a great solution!

 

[kandinsky]

thanks kandinsky and clubsnap for the talk, good information ... hopefully next time got intermediate level as well, then can slowly learn bit by bit =)

No prob!

Intermediate level, the more experienced guys will be better qualified to share. Heheh. I will sign up as attendee. Personally, I think beyond the basics, it's hard to imagine anything that can be shared meaningfully in a 1-hr talk, but probably a more personal sharing that may be specific to each person depending on what kind of stuff he/she shoots? e.g., "How I cover a paintball tournament...", "How I shoot an event", etc.

That said, if you have ideas for specific topics/subjects you think might be a interesting premise for a 1-hr talk, feel free to suggest Then if any of the fellow video folks here have the relevant expertise on that, they can volunteer to hold a session. CS Admin should be able to arrange for use of the CS Gallery space.

Bamboopictures shared this resource some time ago, looks quite solid if anyone is looking for editing training:

https://insidetheedit.com/

[video=vimeo;116801164]https://vimeo.com/116801164[/video]

Inside The Edit is the world’s first creative editing course. This highly specialised training program has been developed over three years by a prime time editing team working at the very highest level of television.

The Creative Editing Course goes way beyond basic editing theory. You will learn hundreds of structural, journalistic and creative techniques used in documentary and entertainment television. From the fundamentals to the highly advanced.

No other course provides you with professional level theory, raw footage to practice on and a guided tour through the creative editing process.

 

[kandinsky]

the rodemics invisilav is a great solution!

Ah yes, forgot about this. Was worried that it couldn't fit my senny ME-2 since the channel looked quite narrow and the product specs didn't mention compatibility. Early reviews I read ruled out using the stock G3 mics cos the diameter was too large. Only recently I saw another reviewer mentioning that he managed to make it work cos it is slightly stretchy. Might pick up a set, thanks for the reminder!

 

[kandinsky]

Would also like to direct those who may be experiencing audio challenges to this super useful thread by bamboopictures:

Overcoming Mic Problems in DLSR

Summary of the audio problems addressed:

I would like to condense some key points from various posts regarding working with microphones on DSLRs. The list are by no means exhaustive.

PROBLEM: My DSLR does not have a microphone input.
PROBLEM: My DSLR has a mic input but no control over the volume.
PROBLEM: I can control volume, but my DSLR has no headphone jack.
PROBLEM: I have want to record audio from more than one source into separate channels on my DSLR
PROBLEM: The signal from my external mic is too high for the DSLR
PROBLEM: The signal from my external mic is too low and my DSLR gain is too noisy.
PROBLEM: The headphone volume is too loud/soft.

Read more:
http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1306382

 

[ronniegogs]

Well one of fav short film makers is Casey Neistat and for movies its Wes Andersen... One technique which they use is Over the top shot... And I intend to build a DIY table rig for shooting just that.. Anyone any experience with that. Recommendations for build (sturdy but can move tables).

Camera : A7, Lighting Yongnuo YN300 II

This is an examples :
[video=youtube;3p3mMJsd1jQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p3mMJsd1jQ[/video]

 

[kandinsky]

Well one of fav short film makers is Casey Neistat and for movies its Wes Andersen... One technique which they use is Over the top shot... And I intend to build a DIY table rig for shooting just that.. Anyone any experience with that. Recommendations for build (sturdy but can move tables).

Camera : A7, Lighting Yongnuo YN300 II

Interesting! Haven't seen that before. Lovely concept. You could try asking Louis Paquet (the filmmaker behind this) on vimeo, he did answer a couple of other questions. https://vimeo.com/92419083

I've attempted this shot before out of curiousity (yes, probably after watching one of Casey Neistat's videos). I was wondering if it could be done using whatever I had on hand. So I tried using just the 190xprob (tripod with a center column that can be switched to horizontal). Main limitation is that you have to zoom in just enough in order to avoid seeing the tripod legs, so you can kinda get the effect, but there's a limit to how wide you can go. One way to 'fake' it if you can't really get the tripod above a table, is to use the floor like you would use a table. With the right backdrop material, nobody would know it's the floor.

Here's a still frame (sorry for the very uninteresting subject, I was just testing whether the shot could be pulled off )

I think if you want an actual table setup, the weight of your camera setup probably determines how heavy duty you need to go. Maybe use a heavy duty stand with a weighted boom arm + clamp? The table could be any foldable table for portability. Lighting would depend on how diffused/soft/even you want it and how much control you need? E.g., If you want it even you might need two lights, or one + reflector/bounce? The YN300 looks like it might be kinda small, so unless it's diffused your shadows may be harder than in the example vid. Can try for natural light next to a window with a white sheet?

Disclaimer: I've never done it properly before, just trying to help deconstruct it.

 

[ronniegogs]

I had a Benro tripod which could do that but I sold it off and moved to Carbon Fiber sirui for less weight and portability.. Kind of wish I had kept that tripod. Now I could buy a lateral extension arm like this Photek but I think I would rather have something which I can DIY for my needs...

Well this is my current plan...
Table Ikea LINNMON http://www.ikea.com/sg/en/catalog/products/S09932182/ Bigger table and more height Cost 39 SGD
Mod to make a light table http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Lightbox-build-with-Ikea-Lack-table/?ALLSTEPS
Will need to be able to control brightness of LED strip so a bit of modification on the power circuit with a dimmer.

Next a Stand
Get this table lack TV table http://www.ikea.com/sg/en/catalog/products/70243298/ Cost : 19.90.

Dimension of Linnmon table 100x60 cm
Dimention of lack TV table 90x26 cm

So I can screw on the Lack TV table to the top of Linnmon.



Height will be 45 cm but since it a smaller table I can increase height by putting wood or any stable support. But the lack table support will help me mount things like LCD monitor, lights

Next Camera mount
Since I want only to mount camera facing directly down so no tripod head is needed.. However I may want to want to do sliding shots and horizontal slides option. Kinda confused about this any ideas ? :what:

 

[kandinsky]

Next Camera mount
Since I want only to mount camera facing directly down so no tripod head is needed.. However I may want to want to do sliding shots and horizontal slides option. Kinda confused about this any ideas ? :what:

Lol, the easy way would I'd say is probably to get a camera that shoots 4K and do the moments in post. Haha.

If you wanna do actual slides... It will still help to have a ballhead to tweak the framing.

There are some sliders that are designed to be also used inverted. Don't know if you already have one, but some can be mounted upside-down, in your case you would need one wider than your table, for example.

May be able to DIY something (pipes & skate wheels??) if you're handy.

Examples for ideas:

http://www.rigwheels.com/product/camera-slider/

http://www.cinevate.com/store2/morpheus-dolly.html

http://rickasnoff.com/archives/850

-------------

Suggest you do some handheld tests to figure out the minimum distance you require from camera/tabletop in order to get the framing with the FOV you want.