B&H selling used cameras for new

[Lord Soth]

There have been some recent complaints posted about B&H selling a used D700 camera as a new one.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=30880117

FYI

 

[CS TAN]

In this case, it really depends on the definition of "used camera/equipment". Since Nikon (and Canon to that matter) does not seal their camera boxes, there is no way to demand a sealed box when consumer do the purchases.

Having said that, most consumers will want to try out the equipment before their purchase. In Singapore, this is mostly done face-to-face but in US, a lot of people use online purchases. So, at J3:16 or CP or MS Color, when we decided to make a purchase, we will always ask to test the equipment before paying. If you tested 2 different cameras and 3 different lenses before deciding on one set, will the other equipments that you have tested but later discarded considered used? Same situation goes to US, when the customers received the equipment and after testing it for a while (usually there is a 1-month 1-for-1 return policy there), he/she decided the lens is not sharp enough or he/she does not like the shutter sound of the camera and return the camera/lens for another unit, will this considered "used" equipment.

I found that it is quite contradicting because people on one hand want to test more than one unit of photo equipment when doing purchases but at the same time wants a brand new untouched equipment...

 

[Lord Soth]

In this case, it really depends on the definition of "used camera/equipment". Since Nikon (and Canon to that matter) does not seal their camera boxes, there is no way to demand a sealed box when consumer do the purchases.

Having said that, most consumers will want to try out the equipment before their purchase. In Singapore, this is mostly done face-to-face but in US, a lot of people use online purchases. So, at J3:16 or CP or MS Color, when we decided to make a purchase, we will always ask to test the equipment before paying. If you tested 2 different cameras and 3 different lenses before deciding on one set, will the other equipments that you have tested but later discarded considered used? Same situation goes to US, when the customers received the equipment and after testing it for a while (usually there is a 1-month 1-for-1 return policy there), he/she decided the lens is not sharp enough or he/she does not like the shutter sound of the camera and return the camera/lens for another unit, will this considered "used" equipment.

I found that it is quite contradicting because people on one hand want to test more than one unit of photo equipment when doing purchases but at the same time wants a brand new untouched equipment...

In Europe and the States, there is a clear difference between "New" and "refurbished/restocked/Demo" items.

Demo items are specially set aside to be tested.

Anything that has been sold and used by the 1st owner and then returned cannot be classified as "NEW". This is not in any legislation but is common practice.

There is also a price differential because of this.

Selling a camera with 50-100 shutter actuations as a "new" camera is simply downright dishonest!

From the thread, it has happened a couple of times and is not an honest mistake either.

I'm glad that there is at least one online retailer such as Amazon which takes such matters seriously.

 

[raghnall]

Oh dear.. I've been seeing complaints surfacing since sometime mid of last year.. There was this guy who bought a "brand new" D700 with 500 shutter counts on it!!! :bigeyes:

 

[CS TAN]

In Europe and the States, there is a clear difference between "New" and "refurbished/restocked/Demo" items.

Demo items are specially set aside to be tested.

Anything that has been sold and used by the 1st owner and then returned cannot be classified as "NEW". This is not in any legislation but is common practice.

There is also a price differential because of this.

Selling a camera with 50-100 shutter actuations as a "new" camera is simply downright dishonest!

From the thread, it has happened a couple of times and is not an honest mistake either.

I'm glad that there is at least one online retailer such as Amazon which takes such matters seriously.

B&H is a bit far from home with a different sets of rules compare to Singapore's and most people here do not deal with them that much now that the difference in price has been getting smaller recently.

But this issue brings out an important point:how CSers feel about the testing of photographic equipment practice here in Singapore. Quite a few shops here allow their customers to test several lenses before finalizing the deal. Although there are demo units for general testings, but when customers want to purchase the lens, they will still try out 2 or 3 "new" units to get the "sharpest" one.

On one hand, people want to get the sharpest lens but on the other hand, they want a brand new untouched lens when they open up their wallet.:dunno:

 

[fleaz]

In this case, it really depends on the definition of "used camera/equipment". Since Nikon (and Canon to that matter) does not seal their camera boxes, there is no way to demand a sealed box when consumer do the purchases.

Is that so? Mine was sealed

 

[yokechye]

Is that so? Mine was sealed

i think sealed as in sealed with a security tape across the box tongue and groove opening

 

[Big Kahuna]

My D700 exif count was 50+ on my first pic....LLBP....cant really do much since its not possible to find this out from the packaging and exterior......can only think positive that some people damn gian and took test shots with it....If there is any problem...I still can go back to NSC within 1 year :sweat:

 

[Lord Soth]

B&H is a bit far from home with a different sets of rules compare to Singapore's and most people here do not deal with them that much now that the difference in price has been getting smaller recently.

But this issue brings out an important point:how CSers feel about the testing of photographic equipment practice here in Singapore. Quite a few shops here allow their customers to test several lenses before finalizing the deal. Although there are demo units for general testings, but when customers want to purchase the lens, they will still try out 2 or 3 "new" units to get the "sharpest" one.

On one hand, people want to get the sharpest lens but on the other hand, they want a brand new untouched lens when they open up their wallet.:dunno:

I beg to differ but those rules should also apply to the Singapore context.
For eg., a couple of years ago, I went to a store to buy a new handphone. The shop had the audacity to try to pass off a 2nd hand refurbished phone to me for the price of a "NEW" phone. I did not get conned because the phone looked like it had been used before. I checked the phonebook and found entries such as "Home", "father" and a list of other names!

As I said before, a returned item should not be sold as a "NEW" item.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with a shop letting potential customers try out the lens. As long as they don't leave fingerprints all over the front and rear elements, it's fine with me. I also don't bother to bring my camera for testing the lenses. This is because most Singapore shops have a 7 day direct exchange policy and I prefer to test out the new lens in the comfort of my own home.

Finally, an experienced person can usually tell whether or not a lens is brand new by the condition of the lens box, plastic wrapper and smell of the lens.

 

[Staro]

The term "Used set", "Demo set", sets that have been tried and a totally new set would only be good, if the buyer understood and the seller is not taking the buyer for a ride. (Of course it is totally wrong to pass of a "Used" handphone as new. Well, counters can also be reset unless read via a counter software).

Correct me if I am wrong (maybe some advertisers can help), all cameras in any shops in Singapore are NOT under Consigment or demo. It has to be paid for and there are no such set as Demo set unless it is at the local agent showroom.

I am not so sure who paid for those set for demo at "Courts Superstore".

Therefore, as long as one of us were to "test" it and change to another set, the story begins. Maybe for lens not many can be easily find out, if it was tested or "used and return".

Frankly if you were to ask me, I to, felt uneasy about a "New" set with some shutter count. (We are just what we are). What is an acceptable range and perhaps these community can "brainstorm" and have a fair guage. This is especially useful when almost all cameras are Digital and have a shutter counter concern.

Since the S2 Pro, till now I have purchase D200, 300, 90 and 700 without releasing and beve check the above discussed subject. Feeling a bit cold now men..........

 

[CS TAN]

I beg to differ but those rules should also apply to the Singapore context.
For eg., a couple of years ago, I went to a store to buy a new handphone. The shop had the audacity to try to pass off a 2nd hand refurbished phone to me for the price of a "NEW" phone. I did not get conned because the phone looked like it had been used before. I checked the phonebook and found entries such as "Home", "father" and a list of other names!

As I said before, a returned item should not be sold as a "NEW" item.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with a shop letting potential customers try out the lens. As long as they don't leave fingerprints all over the front and rear elements, it's fine with me. I also don't bother to bring my camera for testing the lenses. This is because most Singapore shops have a 7 day direct exchange policy and I prefer to test out the new lens in the comfort of my own home.

Finally, an experienced person can usually tell whether or not a lens is brand new by the condition of the lens box, plastic wrapper and smell of the lens.

I am not saying the shops should pass used equipments as new to consumers but in order to be on the same page before we go further, we need to agree on what is considered new equipment. Should we define new as equipment as items from sealed boxes or can we accept the item as new even when it has been tested by another customer?

As you have said, you don't mind having someone tested the lens as long as they do not leave fingerprints on the front/back elements. So for you, perhaps new lenses' definition are those that have been opened and tested by others but with no obvious markings. Will others agree on this definition or will they insist on anything being opened should be considered "used"?

If we all insists on 'virgin' new as some of the people in dpreview forum has indicated, then how can the shops provide us with multiple units to test as the other units that get rejected by the previous customer will have to be considered "used". I don't think the shops can survived with such policy and as a result, the return rule will have to be change or the price of the item will have to be increase.

 

[Lord Soth]

I am not saying the shops should pass used equipments as new to consumers but in order to be on the same page before we go further, we need to agree on what is considered new equipment. Should we define new as equipment as items from sealed boxes or can we accept the item as new even when it has been tested by another customer?

As you have said, you don't mind having someone tested the lens as long as they do not leave fingerprints on the front/back elements. So for you, perhaps new lenses' definition are those that have been opened and tested by others but with no obvious markings. Will others agree on this definition or will they insist on anything being opened should be considered "used"?

If we all insists on 'virgin' new as some of the people in dpreview forum has indicated, then how can the shops provide us with multiple units to test as the other units that get rejected by the previous customer will have to be considered "used". I don't think the shops can survived with such policy and as a result, the return rule will have to be change or the price of the item will have to be increase.

I believe that "new" lenses are those which have not been sold.

It's as simple as that!

 

[Lord Soth]

The term "Used set", "Demo set", sets that have been tried and a totally new set would only be good, if the buyer understood and the seller is not taking the buyer for a ride. (Of course it is totally wrong to pass of a "Used" handphone as new. Well, counters can also be reset unless read via a counter software).

Correct me if I am wrong (maybe some advertisers can help), all cameras in any shops in Singapore are NOT under Consigment or demo. It has to be paid for and there are no such set as Demo set unless it is at the local agent showroom.

I am not so sure who paid for those set for demo at "Courts Superstore".

Therefore, as long as one of us were to "test" it and change to another set, the story begins. Maybe for lens not many can be easily find out, if it was tested or "used and return".

Frankly if you were to ask me, I to, felt uneasy about a "New" set with some shutter count. (We are just what we are). What is an acceptable range and perhaps these community can "brainstorm" and have a fair guage. This is especially useful when almost all cameras are Digital and have a shutter counter concern.

Since the S2 Pro, till now I have purchase D200, 300, 90 and 700 without releasing and beve check the above discussed subject. Feeling a bit cold now men..........

A lot of the major stores in Singapore sell demo sets at a cheaper price. They are also clearly indicated as such, so it is a common practice in Europe, the States and Singapore.

As for the camera bodies, the manufacturers actually conduct their own tests and then do a shutter reset. Fortunately for consumers, the retailers don't know how to do this yet, otherwise we consumers would really be at their mercy.

 

[fleaz]

i think sealed as in sealed with a security tape across the box tongue and groove opening

i don't quite get what you meant by security tape. but mine's definitely sealed.

 

[yokechye]

i don't quite get what you meant by security tape. but mine's definitely sealed.

its something like that

taken from here. apparently this person receive an item with a broken seal

 

[CS TAN]

It really depends on why the seal was broken. If you look at products such as mobile phones, the manufacturers ship their products to distributors such as SingTel which in turn has to install their own software inside the phone before selling them.

 

[lightning]

what is a few hundered shutter count compared to the entire lifespan of the shutter? When I was getting my 1D, I usually test a few sets and each set I will bust the shutter at maximum frame rate for a minute or so just to hear the shutter, and test out all the electronics. :bsmilie: No one in the shop such as Cathay and MS color stop me from doing it. So are the rest of the cameras considered used?:think:

 

[CS TAN]

what is a few hundered shutter count compared to the entire lifespan of the shutter? When I was getting my 1D, I usually test a few sets and each set I will bust the shutter at maximum frame rate for a minute or so just to hear the shutter, and test out all the electronics. :bsmilie: No one in the shop such as Cathay and MS color stop me from doing it. So are the rest of the cameras considered used?:think:

Different people have different definition of what constitute as a new camera/lens. In your case, you will accept a new camera with hundreds of shutter count, some people will accept a low shutter count but for some, they will only accept a zero shutter count. :bsmilie:

 

[Bart Lipski]

Fully agree. US/CAN/EU/JP follow the more structured elecontrics retailer set up, where there is clear distinction between display or demo sets and those sold to customers. Likewise anything returned is no longer resold as 'new' and is often shipped back to the distributor or sold at a discount.

Most photography stores in SG are small, with mininal inventory, hence setting aside a $3000 camera for display /demo purposes would be to much of a loss to absorb, so they let people try/demo 'new' sets that they later sell to customers as 'new' - even if they've been on display for months+.

If you reallly insist on a 'new' set the only way around this is to go the a mass retailer like Harvey Norman, Best Denki who follow the mega retailer model with dedicated display units and untouched 'new' units. Some of the bigger shops like Cathay seem to distinguish demo form new sets as well.