$20k setup. C100 vs GH4.


beachbum

Senior Member
As above guys.
Originally specified for C100 in mind, but throwing in GH4 for comparisons. We actually need 2 cams, but if going with GH4, we can actually afford 4 units which is a plus point.
Budget to include lenses, batteries, SD cards, bags. In the case of the GH4s, 2 units of beachtech/juicelink DSLR XLR adaptors.
Will only be shooting in 1080p, so 4k only bonus.

Shooting will be evenly distributed btw events, interviews and some short films. Occasionally need to cover Theatre, so good low light performance would be great.

Any insights?
 

Why not consider A7s? The sony XLR-K1M is a balanced output unlike juicedlink/beachtek's 3.5mm output. As for low-light, A7s is in a league of it's own.
It will profoundly change they way you think about lighting. Only downside is the sad lack of full-frame FE lenses but APS-C E mount range is not too bad and adapters open you to the world of nikon, canon, leica, sigma, tamron lenses.

If getting the GH4, consider the standard YAGH over the juicelink/beachtek if you don't need run and gun mobility.
unfortunately 20K will not cover M43 lens kits and YAGH units for 4 cameras.
The Lumix 12-35mm and 35-100mm could set you back over $3500 a pair and each YAGH cost more than the GH4 body.
After doing my sums and comparing size and features of the C100, GH4 and A7s, I chose the camera with:
• the smallest form-factor,
• the largest sensor
• the smallest internally powered balanced XLR unit
• the widest dynamic range
• the best low-light (by a mile)
 

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Actually, was thinking the other day that a mixed camera setup would be really ideal. You get the flexibility of having different tools that do different things well. E.g., GH4 for increased reach (x2 crop factor, higher frame rates (96fps), deeper DOF, while the A7s would be great for low-light, shallower DOF, and wide shots due to its FF sensor, etc (know too little about the c100 to comment.. haha). With adapters, you can just about use a wide range of lenses on the GH4/A7s.

C100 + GH4
C100 + GH4 + A7s

Challenge would be to adopt/learn good practices that help with colour correction/matching across the different cameras/lenses: http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2014/06/color-correction-made-easy/

Can check out Erik Naso's comparison of the c100 & gh4:
http://eriknaso.com/2014/05/26/side-by-side-comparison-of-the-canon-c100-panasonic-gh4/
 

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Important thing to ask yourself whether you need 4K in the future.

If you don't, the C100 is the king of Full HD. Nothing much comes close. The DR is amazing due to the 4k sensor, there is ND filter, there is XLR input which is a breeze if you need to do interviews and record good sound directly from theatre.

I loved the Canon colour ... No matter how i look at it and grade it, the 'feel' of a GH3/4 shot is just not as pleasing to my eye comparing to my canon. I guess its a personal preference here.

Another thing to take note is C100 is OLD and most prob going either be discounted heavily soon or the C150 will be coming out with internal compressed 4K (or thats what i hope if canon won't be stupid enough to think that the prosumer market is not 4K ready)

If its me, I would not get the C100 due to its age and high chance of replacement soon.
 

I totally agree with Kadinsky's diversification strategy. But IMHO, if the range of application is as wide as described, I would buy more camcorders than DSLRs. Camcorders are better suited for covering stage events and theatre as they have longer zoom range, more accessible controls, longer battery life, deeper DOF, faster, more accurate autofocus, face-tracking and integrated audio plus many come with WIFI remote control /viewing. And the bonus is they are cheaper than DSLRs!

My current strategy for OMO is a CX900+XLR for cam A and two panasonic W850 on remote control pan tilt heads.
The CX900's 1" sensor really improve low-light performance over 1/2" or 1/3" sensors.
The 2 W850s are very well-behaved on remote control/viewing via 2 separate ipod touch clamped to my tripod and I can pan and tilt them from over 150feet away.
CX900 is $1800
XLR attachment is $700
W850 is $1200
Pan-tilt cradle is $250.
$CX900.jpg
$W850.jpg
 

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I totally agree with Kadinsky's diversification strategy. But IMHO, if the range of application is as wide as described, I would buy more camcorders than DSLRs. Camcorders are better suited for covering stage events and theatre as they have longer zoom range, more accessible controls, longer battery life, deeper DOF, faster, more accurate autofocus, face-tracking and integrated audio plus many come with WIFI remote control /viewing. And the bonus is they are cheaper than DSLRs!

My current strategy for OMO is a CX900+XLR for cam A and two panasonic W850 on remote control pan tilt heads.
The CX900's 1" sensor really improve low-light performance over 1/2" or 1/3" sensors.
The 2 W850s are very well-behaved on remote control/viewing via 2 separate ipod touch clamped to my tripod and I can pan and tilt them from over 150feet away.
CX900 is $1800
XLR attachment is $700
W850 is $1200
Pan-tilt cradle is $250.
<img src="http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3473"/>
<img src="http://www.clubsnap.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3474"/>

Hi guys, thanks for the valuable input.
We have some video cams to cover general interviews and events. Just needing larger sensor cams to supplement and give shallower DOP. Have used C100 and love it and agree with all the plus points abt it, and that is why it is our first choice.
But of course enters progress and comes GH4 and now a7s (tempted to spell as "ass").
I personally do not see us shooting 4k anytime soon as that would require us to upgrade our computers and storage. We are pretty happy with HD until demand for 4k is there. Probably another 3 years away?
For GH4, I would not consider the YAGH or whatever you call it. It is expensive and we only need the xlr as of now. Also it needs ext power which is a bummer. That's why we are considering beachtech or equivalent - lazy to sync. If not, we may rig our H4n viable a cage. BTW, anyone triedthe tascam dr60? Heard a lot of bad things about it though.

For the a7s, low light and xlr adaptor is great feature. But the C100 already fulfills my low light requirements. Also read that battery life sucks, like 60mins per batt. Also, I don't need full frame. In fact it makes focusing more critical. Thought of maybe using it at APS-C mode. Also, I am really not hot abt the idea of ISO 3200 to use Slog. That would mean something like a 10 stop ND and IR filter to shoot in daytime. One thing it does have it 50p and even 100p@720 which C100 doesn't.

But I can see the benefit of a mixed setup. C100 with either A7s or GH4. But not all three. Too troublesome with matching colours. With C100 and a7s, lensing will be easier. Just buy all EF full frames. C100 and GH4 lensing will be a headache, needing separate lenses. Don't know if I can hold my breath till metabones intro their m4/3 to EF mount.
 

By the way, what is a good strategy for using and sharing a large diameter variable NDs over several different size lenses. And how do you go about reducing flare? Big NDs and lens hood don't play well.
 

Lol you may not need to wait for Metabones la. RedRock Micro has an active M43-EF adapter. unless you want the sensor boost.
 

By the way, what is a good strategy for using and sharing a large diameter variable NDs over several different size lenses. And how do you go about reducing flare? Big NDs and lens hood don't play well.

matte box? :/

Genus has some pretty light ones...
 

I currently only have one mattebox with one set of traditional NDs. Was thinking of going the easy variable ND way. So trying to avoid using or buying more mattboxes.
How about screwing on those rubber variable focal length rubber hoods onto the variable NDs?
 

I currently only have one mattebox with one set of traditional NDs. Was thinking of going the easy variable ND way. So trying to avoid using or buying more mattboxes.
How about screwing on those rubber variable focal length rubber hoods onto the variable NDs?

For EF lenses with A7s, you can use the fotodiox vizelex variable ND throttle adapter behind the lens rather than in front.
http://www.fotodioxpro.com/lens-mou...-adapter-with-builtin-variable-nd-filter.html

For EF to GH4, there is only the holy manta:http://www.holymanta.com/products/holymanta-vnd-ef-mft

For matte box alternative, a lanparte swingaway attachment with a $30 opteka plastic 77mm rectangular lenshood should do the trick. Great for zooms with rotating barrels.
http://cheesycam.com/15mm-swing-away-rod-clamp/
http://www.amazon.com/Opteka-MB360-Digital-Matte-Camera/dp/B0067O2VAA
 

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For EF lenses with A7s, you can use the fotodiox vizelex variable ND throttle adapter behind the lens rather than in front.
http://www.fotodioxpro.com/lens-mount-adapters/vizelex-nd-throttle-adapter-pro-canon-eos-ef-lens-to-sony-nex-emount-lens-adapter-with-builtin-variable-nd-filter.html

For EF to GH4, there is only the holy manta:http://www.holymanta.com/products/holymanta-vnd-ef-mft

For matte box alternative, a lanparte swingaway attachment with a $30 opteka plastic 77mm rectangular lenshood should do the trick. Great for zooms with rotating barrels.
http://cheesycam.com/15mm-swing-away-rod-clamp/
http://www.amazon.com/Opteka-MB360-Digital-Matte-Camera/dp/B0067O2VAA

Hi bamboo, thanks for your suggestions. While the idea of build-in NDs in the adaptor sounds good, not seen any test on their quality yet, even though the Holy manta one seems promising. But I am generally leaning more towards NDs in front of lens because I can use the same quality NDs on all the cams and therefore get the same colour shifts which makes grading easier. Even if I am using C100 with say GH4, I intend to use the same type of NDs for them, instead of relying on the inbuilt for C100 and use external for GH4.
Maybe there are brands that are really close to the quality of the C100NDs, then I might consider mixing.
 

Congrats! the Genustech's hood looks like a good idea. I'm a big fan of the Xume magnetic filter adapters but be sure to get a ring for each lens cap as lenscaps no longer fit when lenses are fitted with Xume rings.
 

I will go with the C100 for the battery life and auto focus function. For event, it is very useful! built in ND and XLR and stereo mic are a plus for me. How i wish it has slowmo... but with a bit of software help... this can be overcome.
 

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Top choice now still stays with C100. Just deciding on the second cam.

The surfacing reviews of the A7s shooting at APSC mode is really getting my attention. Seems to look really sharp and the 50p APSC actually looks sharper than the 50p full frame!
I wonder if it will pair well with the PZ 18-105G f4 lens?
Any bros have A7 or a7r that has tried this lens at APSC? Does the body have the lens profile and do the lens correction?
 

Ok. The A7s with 18-105f4 and 24-70f4 just came in. 18105 is apsc and it worked perfectly and on the a7s seems to offer lens correction. And it is a P lens too, with powered zoom! Zoom range is very impressive. My current top choice for run and gun shooting.

Unfortunately, the XLR adaptor is not available. Really wanted to try that.
Will need a suitable cage for the a7s yo mount it. Any suggestions?

Pro
sharp 1080p picture.
1080p50
Xlr capability.
P18105 lens
24-105L lens might be really useful-can use at full frame and at apsc if need to punch in.
Compatible with EF lens with adaptor Dynamic range - didnt test it yet, but apparently very good.
Of course the high ISO.

Cons
Poor Battery life.
Cant get use to fly by wire focusing. Critical rack focus not repeatable. EF USM lenses are stronger in that regard.
XAVC needs transcoding for FCP7 usage.
No build in ND.

AF
A7s Continuous AF in video better that C100. At least the focus pull is slower. C100 just snaps into focus, so not suitable for racking, tracking ok.
GH4 has the best and most flexible and usable AF for video of the bunch. The touch screen is really useful for rack focusing and the pull is really smooth and slower. The AF tracking is also really good, though not infallible. Usable in steadicam tracking.
But manual focusing with the fly by wire design of the panasonic lens &#128531;.
 

Will need a suitable cage for the a7s yo mount it. Any suggestions?

&#128531;.

LB-A7's not really a cage but it is very snug without blocking any ports. Only one usable 1/4"-20 on the left side for perhaps a friction arm with coldshoe.
Brand-New-Fittest-Quick-Release-L-Bracket-Camera-Grip-Custom-for-Sony-a7-a7R-LB-A7.jpg
 

Thought this was quite relevant to this thread:

[video=vimeo;100642275]https://vimeo.com/100642275[/video]

A GH4 IN THE FIELD - C300/C100 INTERCUT

After having spent a week with the GH4 (vimeo.com/98463281) I had to fly to Georgia in the Caucasus to direct a documentary for France 5, one of the french national TV channels. I thought that it would be the perfect opportunity to test the GH4 in a real production environment and see how it would match our C300 and C100 in the field. Here is a quick edit of the results.

Note that I am not a colorist nor a pixel peeper but a director and DP that is trying to understand his tools and share what he learned.

All shots were only slightly graded in Premiere CS6 using the basic color correction tools to match exposure and roughly set the black/white/saturation levels.

All C300/C100 shots are C-Log. All GH4 shots use the Neutral profile with sharpness and noise reduction set to -5, contrast and saturation between -3 and -5, depending on the scene. Master Pedestral was set to +10. This is the profile that work best for me after doing some test during my first week. But you are welcome to share yours !

I didn&#8217;t try to match the tints as I wanted to check the results «out of the camera», sort of.

Note that the GH4 had a Schneider True Match Vari ND in front of the lens, so that may give it a twist.

So, What did I learn ?

Looking at the landscape shots from the GH4, I have to say that I am pretty impress with the results. Shooting in 4k and editing on a 1080p timeline gives a pretty close match in terms of resolution and a very nice rendering to my taste. On the dynamic range side, the GH4 is definitely not as good as the Canon cameras. It maybe not completely obvious of those scenes but the GH4 just can&#8217;t handle as much difference between highlights and shadows. The reason for that is the noise level. All shots on the C300 where done between 850 and 1600 ISO when the GH4 was set to 200 ISO. To my eyes, the noise of the GH4 is as visible at that setting as 1600 ISO on the C300. The other thing I noticed is that the GH4 can be very noisy on the dark part of the image. When for instance shooting a mountain top with a forest below, setting the exposure to protect the sky, the forest, although clearly visible, would become really noisy. Even though it seemed to capture those dark stops, it was capturing it with a lot of noise.

For me it means that protecting the highlights and underexposing like you could do on a C300 is problematic on the GH4 as the grade would bring too much noise. For the same reason I think that trying to increase dynamic range with picture profiles will only show noisier shadows.

On the other side, the GH4 has some great tools that the C300 does not. It can do time lapses straight in camera, which is a big time saver and a very cool feature ! I used that feature a lot during our shooting (only one shot in this edit) and I am very pleased not to have to bring another photo camera just for those. On the C300 the under-crank is just rubbish.

The GH4 also has very cool slow-motion possibilities. I didn&#8217;t use those during this shooting because it wouldn&#8217;t match our story. But for music videos, shorts and more creative shooting, that is definitely a plus.

Technical limitations asides, the GH4 proved to be a really great tool for our shooting environment.
When shooting abroad in remote areas, we usually take with us a C300 as our A camera and a C100 as a B camera. But when conditions of shooting imply long hiking sessions or when battery life becomes more important than IQ, the C300 just stays home and the C100 becomes the A camera. It&#8217;s in those situations that I was really hopping the GH4 could be a good sidekick. It&#8217;s form factor, size, weight, battery life and media capacity just make it the perfect tool for those kind of jobs. With only a battery grip, a vari ND and a reference mic, I was able to shoot all day in all conditions, even when riding a horse !

On the other side the EVF is not as good as the one on the C300, the screen is not very bright, but who cares ? It gets the job done ! The ability to set a free-run timecode alone is a big time saver in post production.

But the real test was to see how well I could match the Canon cameras and the GH4.

Looking at the two cameras side by side, and especially the interview parts, I think that they intercut nicely, even with minimum post-production. And for me this is the most important.

In the end, the GH4 maybe not be the perfect camera but the C300 and C100 aren&#8217;t either. What matters is how effective it can be on the field. How it can help us tell stories, be more responsive and travel lighter.

via: https://vimeo.com/100642275
 

Hi Kandinsky, thanks for thr link. Very informative. Have not gone around to matching profiles and shots yet. That will be on my list.

On a side note. Tried the canon 70d afc in video and was very impressed. Easily as good as GH4. But GH4 has one extra pattern tracking mode which i find it more useful than face recognition tracking. You can track a subject with a nice printed shirt effortlessly.
 

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